Location: Charles Brandon, 1st Duke of Suffolk

Discussion: Brandon's WivesReported This is a featured thread

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Verlah
Brandon's Wives
Oct 19 2009, 2:57 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 19 2009, 2:57 PM EDT
I am quite disappointed at the end of the love story between Brandon and Margaret. I think she was the love of his life, I would have preffered if they had not let her die. They should have developed the story, with Brandon realising step by step that Margaret is the love of his life and that he hurts her by cheating on her all the time. Finally he would have become a faithful husband to Margaret.

Besides, I would say that Brandon and Catherine are a rather bad match. I cannot see any passion between them. I believe Brandon when he says that he loves her but it seems to me to be more like a brother-and-sister relationship.

What do you think?
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Elliemental
Elliemental
1. RE: Brandon's Wives
Oct 19 2009, 3:32 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 19 2009, 3:33 PM EDT
Well, Catherine has all the personality of half a dead trout. That never helps.
Maybe, if they had a better actress playing her, things would be different. The makers of the show should`ve stuck to history, and let Mary/Margaret die when she really did die (1533). They also should`ve shown the births of Mary/Margaret`s kids, one of whom was Frances, the mother of Jane Grey, the nine day queen. So yeah, they totally screwed up his character. Instead, Brandon has this young son, who seems to have popped up, out of thin air at the start of Series two.

As for the real Charles Brandon`s wives, his marital history is so complex, that you have to be on at least two forms of mind expanding drug to fully understand it.
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Nofretete
Nofretete
2. RE: Brandon's Wives
Oct 19 2009, 5:07 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 19 2009, 5:07 PM EDT
"Well, Catherine has all the personality of half a dead trout. That never helps.
Maybe, if they had a better actress playing her, things would be different. The makers of the show should`ve stuck to history, and let Mary/Margaret die when she really did die (1533). They also should`ve shown the births of Mary/Margaret`s kids, one of whom was Frances, the mother of Jane Grey, the nine day queen. So yeah, they totally screwed up his character. Instead, Brandon has this young son, who seems to have popped up, out of thin air at the start of Series two.

As for the real Charles Brandon`s wives, his marital history is so complex, that you have to be on at least two forms of mind expanding drug to fully understand it."
Four wives and one betrothal are not that complicated, I think.

I disagree about the actress. I like her. And I'm sure the producers had their reasons for excluding Frances (since they are not going to show Jane Grey, she is really superfluous is she) I'm also sure they know when Mary's kids were born. In the deleted scenes from Season 1 Brandon's son is mentioned already by the way.
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Elliemental
Elliemental
3. RE: Brandon's Wives
Oct 19 2009, 5:11 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 19 2009, 5:12 PM EDT
I`ve never seen any deleted scenes, and it would`ve been nice to see some important characters from the future. I mean, they`re not covering the reigns of Mary, Edward and Elizabeth, but they`re still included in the show. And, do you not think I may have been being light hearted in what I said about Brandon`s marraiges? Sorry, like! And, btw, the set up of these marraiges was murky to say the least! Do you find this valuable?    
Nofretete
Nofretete
4. RE: Brandon's Wives
Oct 19 2009, 5:15 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 19 2009, 5:15 PM EDT
"I`ve never seen any deleted scenes, and it would`ve been nice to see some important characters from the future. I mean, they`re not covering the reigns of Mary, Edward and Elizabeth, but they`re still included in the show. And, do you not think I may have been being light hearted in what I said about Brandon`s marraiges? Sorry, like! And, btw, the set up of these marraiges was murky to say the least! "
Yeah, you are right, sorry if I sounded snarky, rough day. :-)

The deleted scenes are on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsRQXR5MNQ0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nrRZRUwGiY&feature=related
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Elliemental
Elliemental
5. RE: Brandon's Wives
Oct 19 2009, 5:33 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 19 2009, 5:33 PM EDT
Oh you gem! Thanks for the links to youtube. Do you find this valuable?    
MsSquirrly
MsSquirrly
6. RE: Brandon's Wives
Oct 19 2009, 5:37 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 19 2009, 5:37 PM EDT
They are on the wiki too : http://tudorswiki.sho.com/page/DELETED+SCENES+of+the+Tudors Do you find this valuable?    

neemarita
7. RE: Brandon's Wives
Oct 19 2009, 7:01 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 19 2009, 7:01 PM EDT
I plan on writing my master's thesis on Catherine Willoughby and I've been rather disappointed by her portrayal in the show, though it makes sense; she's just there as his conscience. From what I've read Catherine and Charles had a pretty happy marriage. The real Catherine was quite funny and very opinionated, that would make for a much more interesting character on the show but... I hope they do more with the character in season 4 as she had a strong friendship with Katherine Parr, but I doubt it. Do you find this valuable?    
Maggie-AnneB.
Maggie-AnneB.
8. RE: Brandon's Wives
Oct 19 2009, 8:18 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 19 2009, 8:18 PM EDT
"I plan on writing my master's thesis on Catherine Willoughby and I've been rather disappointed by her portrayal in the show, though it makes sense; she's just there as his conscience. From what I've read Catherine and Charles had a pretty happy marriage. The real Catherine was quite funny and very opinionated, that would make for a much more interesting character on the show but... I hope they do more with the character in season 4 as she had a strong friendship with Katherine Parr, but I doubt it."
I don't see why not. She has already proven that she has a mind of her own, and she isn't afraid to speak it. I think Catherine's part in the show will become more complex and I'm excited for it. She was friends with Katherine Parr, so maybe she'll be the one to get Henry and Katherine together... :D
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AJBates
9. RE: Brandon's Wives
Oct 20 2009, 12:24 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 20 2009, 12:24 AM EDT
Well that must have been a happy friendship towards the end.... Wasn't Henry a few months before he died, and shortly after Brandon died, considering divorcing Catherine Parr and marrying Catherine Willoughby? Do you find this valuable?    
Nofretete
Nofretete
10. RE: Brandon's Wives
Oct 20 2009, 1:24 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 20 2009, 1:24 AM EDT
"I plan on writing my master's thesis on Catherine Willoughby and I've been rather disappointed by her portrayal in the show, though it makes sense; she's just there as his conscience. From what I've read Catherine and Charles had a pretty happy marriage. The real Catherine was quite funny and very opinionated, that would make for a much more interesting character on the show but... I hope they do more with the character in season 4 as she had a strong friendship with Katherine Parr, but I doubt it."
Hi, neemarita! I think it's great that you are going to write your master's thesis on her. She was a very interesting person, strong-headed definitely. Do you have Evelyn Read's biography on her 'My Lady Suffolk'? That book is *really* hard to get and unfortunately doesn't even have an ISBN, as it was published before the invention of ISBNs. :-(
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neemarita
11. RE: Brandon's Wives
Oct 20 2009, 3:22 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 20 2009, 3:22 AM EDT
"Hi, neemarita! I think it's great that you are going to write your master's thesis on her. She was a very interesting person, strong-headed definitely. Do you have Evelyn Read's biography on her 'My Lady Suffolk'? That book is *really* hard to get and unfortunately doesn't even have an ISBN, as it was published before the invention of ISBNs. :-("
I've actually found it on Google Books, believe it or not. A lot of it seems to be conjecture, but that's thanks to "we don't have records!" At least she left some very entertaining and interesting letters (it was very sad reading what she wrote after her sons died) . I hope I can actually say something interesting, hehe.
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Nofretete
Nofretete
12. RE: Brandon's Wives
Oct 20 2009, 8:33 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 20 2009, 8:36 AM EDT
"I've actually found it on Google Books, believe it or not. A lot of it seems to be conjecture, but that's thanks to "we don't have records!" At least she left some very entertaining and interesting letters (it was very sad reading what she wrote after her sons died) . I hope I can actually say something interesting, hehe."
You found it on Google Books in complete print? When I go to Google Books I only get incomplete versions. What I am doing wrong? Help me out?

From the pieces I've seen I got the impression too that it is a lot of conjecture, but still, it seemed well written and researched and sadly there isn't much more on her out there. That letter after her sons died moved me too (I saw it posted somehwhere on the internet, I think)

I'm sure you can say something new and interesting about her in your thesis. Do you have an outline for your thesis already? I guess it's not going to be another biography, so what are your plans, if you don't mind sharing? :-)

EDIT: I found the book on archive.org!
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lettice
lettice
13. RE: Brandon's Wives
Oct 20 2009, 1:43 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 20 2009, 1:43 PM EDT
"Well, Catherine has all the personality of half a dead trout. That never helps.
Maybe, if they had a better actress playing her, things would be different. The makers of the show should`ve stuck to history, and let Mary/Margaret die when she really did die (1533). They also should`ve shown the births of Mary/Margaret`s kids, one of whom was Frances, the mother of Jane Grey, the nine day queen. So yeah, they totally screwed up his character. Instead, Brandon has this young son, who seems to have popped up, out of thin air at the start of Series two.

As for the real Charles Brandon`s wives, his marital history is so complex, that you have to be on at least two forms of mind expanding drug to fully understand it."
Interesting turn of events, that's for sure. Most of us know Brandon loved Mary Tudor. This Margaret character was quite a deviation from the truth. The show really went off track with that one! Yes, and what about Frances???
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neemarita
14. RE: Brandon's Wives
Oct 21 2009, 3:11 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 3:11 AM EDT
Yeah, it definitely wasn't the full version, but enough to get an idea!

Well, I studied a lot of religious history for my BA, so I was thinking of going the route of her conversion to a Protestant and her influences on the Protestant movement, establishment of churches on the continent, patronage of authors and chaplains, etc. I hope to go to the UK to try to get my hands on some documents, though I've not done actual research in this time period like this (I've gone to Stanford University to read letters from Nicholas II and his family, but it's a lot easier to read translations of Russian in English than middle English! hehe).

I do find it interesting that no one can seem to agree on her birth-date (1519? 1520? I read 1518 somewhere too!), or if she married Charles in 1533 or 1534. It's so difficult to find dates for things considering the legal new year started in March... bah!
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Nofretete
Nofretete
15. RE: Brandon's Wives
Oct 21 2009, 4:02 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 4:13 AM EDT
The whole book is here: http://www.archive.org/details/myladysunfolk006427mbp (There is an option on the left hand side if you want to read it as pdf, html or online - I recommend not to use html)

From what I have read so far of the book it deals a lot with her religious conversion, so you should have a good source! :-)
Archive.org also has a lot of other interesting books on the time period, too.

And then there is british-history.ac.uk, which has the complete Letters and State Papers of Henry's reign.
See here: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/catalogue.aspx?gid=126&type=3 (all the State Papers, very interesting if you have the patience to wade through the complicated navigation)

They also mention the year she was married to Charles Brandon (1533, shortly after Mary Tudor died) in a letter from Chapuys.
Letter by Chapuys here: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/search.aspx?query1=novelty&rf=pubid:846

As for her birthdate, I have never seen a primary source for that, but it's always mentioned as March 1519 or 1520, so if she is listed as being born in March 1519, it's probably impossible to know if the writer was using the Gregorian or Julian calender - some people were using the Gregorian already others stuck to the Julian still. But I think 1518 might be just wrong information though. She must have been 14 or 15 when she married.

EDIT: Letters and State Papers are on archive.org as well and easier to read there:
http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=Letters%20and%20Papers%2C%20Foreign%20and%20Domestic%2C%20Henry%20VIII%20AND%20mediatype%3Atexts
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neemarita
16. RE: Brandon's Wives
Oct 21 2009, 10:45 PM EDT | Post edited: Oct 21 2009, 10:45 PM EDT
Navigating the State Papers site gives me such a headache! :)

Thanks for the link to the whole book. :D

Considering it's for a Master's degree I figure I'll have to do more research than just sitting around reading journals and books like I did in undergrad, hehe...

I thought 1518 was just misinformation too - God knows there is so much about this era...just like anything else, I suppose.
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Nofretete
Nofretete
17. RE: Brandon's Wives
Oct 22 2009, 12:58 AM EDT | Post edited: Oct 22 2009, 12:58 AM EDT
Now I feel stupid for linking to State Papers, when you already know them... XD Do you find this valuable?    

E.V.
18. RE: Brandon's Wives
Nov 11 2009, 4:18 PM EST | Post edited: Nov 11 2009, 4:18 PM EST
"At least she left some very entertaining and interesting letters (it was very sad reading what she wrote after her sons died) . "
I know I'm late to this thread -- sorry! I'm a re-enactor and have been researching Catherine Willoughby for several months, but have not been able to find any letters written to/by her, beyond what's quoted in the various books that mention her ("Five Women of the English Reformation", "My Lady Suffolk", etc.). Would you mind telling me your source(s)?

Thanks so much...
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