Discussion: Will Henry's mind begin to wander?

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elizabethtudorrose	20. RE: Norfolk's duplicity Jul 28 2009, 8:47 AM EDT continued... Even the Catholic Bishops sanctioned a 'reservation', meaning they could pay lip service to the oath, but deny it in their hearts and they wouldn't be sinning against the church by taking the Oath. So it makes me wonder how much Thomas loved his family to let them fall over a matter of his conscience. He could very well have taken that Oath and just retire, leaving his family intact and with some dignity. And no doubt any Catholic priest, Cardinal or Pope would have granted him absolution for taking it. I always admired the man, but now I question his integrity. Especially for letting his family fall! Now Moore lovers, don't crash on me! lol. I don't mean any harm, I just question Moore's selfishness over the Oath, not his good deeds. I'm going to put up a thread about Moore and you all can kill me there. I just find it so difficult to understand why an 'humanitarian' would let his family suffer the way Moore did. Peace, ETR Post reply Do you find this valuable?
tudorcrazy	21. RE: Norfolk's duplicity Jul 28 2009, 9:05 AM EDT I so agree another KOA and MQS Post reply Do you find this valuable?
CarolineZ	22. RE: Norfolk's duplicity Jul 28 2009, 2:32 PM EDT "continued... Even the Catholic Bishops sanctioned a 'reservation', meaning they could pay lip service to the oath, but deny it in their hearts and they wouldn't be sinning against the church by taking the Oath. So it makes me wonder how much Thomas loved his family to let them fall over a matter of his conscience. He could very well have taken that Oath and just retire, leaving his family intact and with some dignity. And no doubt any Catholic priest, Cardinal or Pope would have granted him absolution for taking it. I always admired the man, but now I question his integrity. Especially for letting his family fall! Now Moore lovers, don't crash on me! lol. I don't mean any harm, I just question Moore's selfishness over the Oath, not his good deeds. I'm going to put up a thread about Moore and you all can kill me there. I just find it so difficult to understand why an 'humanitarian' would let his family suffer the way Moore did. Peace, ETR" Have you ever felt that if you took a certain action you would be lost forever? I have, and I think that is how More viewed the taking of the oath. He didn't try to give his scruples to anyone else, but he did have scruples and could not get rid of them. He thought he was endangering his immortal soul, and, I believe, thought God had brought him to this crossroad. It must have been exquisitely painful for him when his family begged him to sign. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
tudorcrazy	23. RE: Norfolk's duplicity Jul 28 2009, 6:10 PM EDT true proof that even the smartest intellectuals in life can be stupid. No question he was brilliant. He thought he believed in God, but if there was a God, he wouldn't have been burnt at the stake, leaving those children without a father. Yes, I did think that if I took a certain action, I would be lost forever, and I wasn't. I do think that sometimes there is self determination. Of course, in the end, that has not always worked out, actually most of time, but I can't.. repeat can not, believe that everything is predetermined. Then nothing would matter. I am really angry that KOA didn't divorce Henry, and live like the Queen she was, able to love her daughter, who was scarred for life by her actions. I also, think Thomas More had so much to do, and he was selfish by ending his life. My feelings run the same way about Mary Q of Scots. She didn't have to die, or be a prisoner. She just wouldn't convert. I think it's like a great author or composer committing suicide, when they had so much left to create. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
elizabethtudorrose	24. RE: Norfolk's duplicity Jul 29 2009, 7:36 AM EDT Ladies and Gents, I have posted a new thread under Thomas Moore called "Thomas Moore: Saint or Selfish". Since this thread is dedicated to Henry, I'm asking that any replies about my change of heart towards Sir Thomas be directed there, and keep the flow of the subject going here. Thank you for your patience. TC and CarolineZ, great thoughts and posts! See if you can paste them on the new thread. There have been several replies so far, and it's been viewed and rated (lol!) by many more who did not contribute. Let's see if we can keep that subj. 'hot' for a while and bring the ratings back up for the wiki. Regards, ETR Post reply Do you find this valuable?
tudorcrazy	25. RE: Norfolk's duplicity Jul 29 2009, 10:35 PM EDT "Ladies and Gents, I have posted a new thread under Thomas Moore called "Thomas Moore: Saint or Selfish". Since this thread is dedicated to Henry, I'm asking that any replies about my change of heart towards Sir Thomas be directed there, and keep the flow of the subject going here. Thank you for your patience. TC and CarolineZ, great thoughts and posts! See if you can paste them on the new thread. There have been several replies so far, and it's been viewed and rated (lol!) by many more who did not contribute. Let's see if we can keep that subj. 'hot' for a while and bring the ratings back up for the wiki. Regards, ETR" thanks I know I got off the subject, but I couldn't help replying to Caroline's comment. I do agree this is a great thread so I will try to paste in the proper place. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
hcmaster	26. RE: Norfolk's duplicity Aug 3 2009, 1:33 PM EDT \| Post edited: Aug 3 2009, 1:33 PM EDT I used to feel sorry for Thomas More in history books and in movies of him, but I think he was no better when I read further about him and learned he had people burned at the stake because of their own beliefs...Now, I don't feel as much compassion for Thomas More. He killed human beings and he got it in the end too. Please don't attack me on this one. You have good points though Post reply Do you find this valuable?
CarolineZ	27. RE: Norfolk's duplicity Aug 3 2009, 1:41 PM EDT \| Post edited: Aug 3 2009, 1:41 PM EDT "I used to feel sorry for Thomas More in history books and in movies of him, but I think he was no better when I read further about him and learned he had people burned at the stake because of their own beliefs...Now, I don't feel as much compassion for Thomas More. He killed human beings and he got it in the end too. Please don't attack me on this one. You have good points though" Hey, no attacks here--we're all friends! Post reply Do you find this valuable?
hcmaster	28. RE: Norfolk's duplicity Aug 3 2009, 8:28 PM EDT \| Post edited: Aug 3 2009, 8:28 PM EDT Sorry if I offended anyone. I was just making a statement that is historically accurate about Thomas More. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
elizabethtudorrose	29. RE: Norfolk's duplicity Aug 4 2009, 8:47 AM EDT \| Post edited: Aug 4 2009, 8:47 AM EDT "Sorry if I offended anyone. I was just making a statement that is historically accurate about Thomas More. " Hi HC, No offense taken, but I do suggest you post your thoughts on the Thomas Moore, Saint or Selfish thread. You've brought up some valid points and I'd like to discuss them w/you, since it was I who started the thread and I still have some questions of my own. Can you copy your post from here over there? (I'm 'technically' illiterate!, and don't know how to do that, lolol!) Thanks for the input! Peace, ETR Post reply Do you find this valuable?
hcmaster	30. RE: Norfolk's duplicity Aug 4 2009, 12:43 PM EDT To answer your question, I really don't know how...I was only mentioning that once I did feel sorry for Thomas More, thought he was a saint, but when I researched and read books on him and when to Google answers, I found that he had 6 people executed by burning at the stake.. I am not trying to burst anyone's saintly bubble of Thomas, I am just mentioning a fact.. In those times if you didn't think a certain way, you were a witch or possessed or something. Feel free to email me at any time and thanks for being kind. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
MsSquirrly	31. Will Henry's mind begin to wander? Aug 4 2009, 12:59 PM EDT Hey everyone, the new thread to continue this discussion about Thomas More is here : http://tudorswiki.sho.com/thread/3116764/Thomas+Moore%3A++Saint+or+Selfish Post reply Do you find this valuable?
JRMISMYMAN	32. RE: Will Henry's mind begin to wander? Aug 4 2009, 1:21 PM EDT \| Post edited: Aug 4 2009, 1:21 PM EDT I THINK hENRY mind will wander on his deathbed. H e will remember his faults, regrets,and triumphs. I hope the show will end it that way. Post reply 1 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
LadySarahMichelle`	33. RE: Will Henry's mind begin to wander? Oct 19 2009, 12:23 AM EDT "I hope that they bring back afew of the characters, maybe to have a dream scene.?! Where he see's himself as a true monster, ugly makeup and all, with all the dead famous/main characters coming to bid him "welcome", and have it really impact the character. You know what they say, some see the dead before they join them. " That would wonderful! Id especially love to see Anne and Catherine come back together to haunt him.. Even though they hated each other on earth perphas in the after life they have recondiled and join forces to haunt henry? Iuno just an idea D; Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Chocobasse10	34. RE: Will Henry's mind begin to wander? Monday, 3:06 AM EST \| Post edited: Monday, 3:06 AM EST I really hope that he will see images of his wives as he dies or that he at least has a moment of remembering them and all those he wronged. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
henry's7thwife	35. RE: Will Henry's mind begin to wander? Monday, 3:53 AM EST \| Post edited: Monday, 3:53 AM EST I do believe even in reality Henry regretted his actions. He seems to have been like a child ordering executions and then realizing what that person meant to him when it was too late. Anne Boleyn, Thomas Wolsey, Thomas More, Thomas Cromwell, Catherine Howard ... he destroyed them himself and then he missed them. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Reggie19	36. RE: Will Henry's mind begin to wander? Monday, 5:42 AM EST \| Post edited: Monday, 5:42 AM EST "I do believe even in reality Henry regretted his actions. He seems to have been like a child ordering executions and then realizing what that person meant to him when it was too late. Anne Boleyn, Thomas Wolsey, Thomas More, Thomas Cromwell, Catherine Howard ... he destroyed them himself and then he missed them. " I think he only really showed regret about Cromwell's death openly? Post reply Do you find this valuable?
henry's7thwife	37. RE: Will Henry's mind begin to wander? Monday, 7:31 AM EST \| Post edited: Monday, 7:31 AM EST "I think he only really showed regret about Cromwell's death openly?" Didn't he blame Anne for More's death once she fell from favour? He was also upset when Catherine died. With Anne, of course, there was absolutely nothing said or done ... but a guilty conscience would definitely mourn her. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
elizabethtudorrose	38. RE: Will Henry's mind begin to wander? Monday, 8:57 AM EST \| Post edited: Monday, 8:57 AM EST Hi Reg, 7thwife, I know Henry showed 'open' regret about Wolsey, not so much Cromwell. But if this is in reference to the show, I haven't seen season 3 yet, so forgive me if I'm on the wrong track. Historically speaking, Henry did mind Wolsey's death more than Crum's. Crum saddled him w/the Flemish Mare and Henry never forgave him for that blunder. It's too bad, because AOC and Henry became very good friends and would visit each other and send gifts for the remainder of his days. She was also a good friend to Mary. Anne B was blamed for everything by the people and Henry himself. But he did know she was innocent of having affairs w/5 men. As he aged and his mind went, he'd think he see her in the arras or the curtains, or in a way a woman would look. He needed to feel guilty about her! He'd bribed the nobles into condemning her so he could marry Jane w/no strings. And KOA he just let rot in the fens. If any of his queens had the right to haunt him, it was definitely KOA and AB! I think, hope, that #4 will show some scenes that we haven't seen w/AB, KOA, et al. if not replaying some scenes we've seen. But bringing back the women who played the queens in #4 would be ideal. Then we'd have a chance to see them again and the writers bring in fresh dialog for them. Especially if they come back as haunts. Ooo, I'd love to see them tormenting Henry on his deathbed! Peace, ETR Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Elliemental	39. RE: Will Henry's mind begin to wander? Monday, 11:03 AM EST \| Post edited: Monday, 11:10 AM EST Oh ETR! I`m sorry, going to have to point out a few things here. Henry bitterly regretted the execution of Cromwell. He had been put to death "upon light pretexts and on false charges", to quote Henry himself, who went on in the same rant to describe Cromwell as his most faithful servant. As for Anne of Cleves, that had litle to do with Cromwell`s downfall, all the charges laid against him were Scramentary Heresy. Also, it`s worth noting that several people (and not just Cromwell) were involved in the Cleves marraige, and none of them suffered as a result. Henry even ennobled Cromwell to the earldon of Essex two months after the Cleves marraige took place. The main instigator of Cromwell`s fall was Stephen Gardiner, bishop of Winchester, who cling to Catholicism. As for Wolsey, he`d badly let Henry down by failing to get a divorce, despite making several grand promises, and of course Henry got it into his head (courtesy of Anne Boleyn), that Wolsey was secretly usurping the nullity case. Anne may`ve been inncent of all the crimes that she was put to death for, but she was pivotal in the downfall of Wolsey. Thomas More, on the other hand, refused to obey the King. And that, in Henry`s eyes, was pure unforgiveable. He blamed Anne for it when it suited him, but by the same token, he never really came regret More`s death. Henry could never forgive such `disobedience` from a man that he`d raised. Post reply Do you find this valuable?

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