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tudorcrazy
tudorcrazy
Anne's sex life before Henry
Jun 17 2009, 12:35 AM EDT | Post edited: Jun 17 2009, 12:35 AM EDT
According to my reading, she married Henry Percy, and the wedding was consummated. It seems as though she also slept with Thomas Wyatt, as she tells him, never to speak of her. She was protecting him, and they were indeed the only survivors of her demise except her father. Did Henry think she was a virgin, or did he not care, because he was so infatuated with her in the beginning.? Anne certainly held a grudge about Thomas Wolsey until the end. Wasn't this because he broke off her marriage with Percy?
Henry was either very naive about her sexual past, or didn't care until he decided to kill her. Why didn't he kill Percy and Wyatt, who did sleep with her? Any thoughts on this?
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theanneboleynfiles
theanneboleynfiles
1. RE: Anne's sex life before Henry
Jun 28 2009, 3:52 AM EDT | Post edited: Jun 28 2009, 3:52 AM EDT
From my research, there is absolutely no evidence that Anne slept with anyone before Henry and she kept her "virtue" until she was sure that they were soon to be married. It is alleged that there may have been a betrothal between Ann and Percy but Percy's father and Wolsey quickly stepped in and prevented Percy from marrying Anne. There was no wedding or consummation, or no record of this. Percy was quickly married off to Mary Talbot and Anne was supposed to marry James Butler of Ireland.

There is no real agreement between historians over Wyatt and Anne, but Wyatt's love is regarded as unrequited and his poems more a show of "courtly love". Warnicke points out in her book that allegations that Anne had an affair with Wyatt in 1527 are preposterous because it was a well known fact that Anne was the King's and he was going to marry her. There is no evidence of an affair and although Wyatt was imprisoned in the Tower in 1536 he was released and went on to successfully serve the crown. It is only the writings of Nicholas Sander and Catholic writers in the 1550s that talk of the alleged affair. These writings were based on rumours, gossip and the fact that Wyatt had been imprisoned and these manuscripts have been discredited by historians.

As far as a grudge against Wolsey is concerned, this is speculation and Eric Ives, in his biography, does not believe that a grudge harboured by Anne led to Wolsey's downfall and that it was more the fact that Anne felt that Wolsey was actually trying to "frustrate" the divorce rather than working for it.

My feeling is that Henry was anything but naive and that if he felt that Anne had consummated a union with Percy or had an affair with Wyatt that he certainly would have used this against her in her trial rather than accusing the other 5 men.

What did you read that said all that? I'd be interested to know.
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angelosdaughter
angelosdaughter
2. RE: Anne's sex life before Henry
Jun 28 2009, 4:06 AM EDT | Post edited: Jun 28 2009, 4:06 AM EDT
In addition, Anne was too shrewd to yield up her virtue for anything less than an advantageous marriage. She did not want her sister's fate as a woman with a reputation for being 'easy' and a mistress the King eventually dropped and then married off. She definitely could not have held Henry off for seven years if she had a sexual history; someone would certainly have brought it to the King's attention as was done in Katheryn Howard's case. 1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
theanneboleynfiles
theanneboleynfiles
3. RE: Anne's sex life before Henry
Jun 28 2009, 5:03 AM EDT | Post edited: Jun 28 2009, 5:03 AM EDT
Definitely. Some say that Anne used her virtue as bait for Henry and was a tease but I believe that she had high morals and, like you say, did not want to end up like her sister. 0  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
MsSquirrly
MsSquirrly
4. RE: Anne's sex life before Henry
Jun 28 2009, 7:12 AM EDT | Post edited: Jun 28 2009, 2:08 PM EDT
"According to my reading, she married Henry Percy, and the wedding was consummated. It seems as though she also slept with Thomas Wyatt, as she tells him, never to speak of her. She was protecting him, and they were indeed the only survivors of her demise except her father. Did Henry think she was a virgin, or did he not care, because he was so infatuated with her in the beginning.? Anne certainly held a grudge about Thomas Wolsey until the end. Wasn't this because he broke off her marriage with Percy?
Henry was either very naive about her sexual past, or didn't care until he decided to kill her. Why didn't he kill Percy and Wyatt, who did sleep with her? Any thoughts on this?"
tudorcrazy, can you quote the source where you read this?
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s.rochie
s.rochie
5. RE: Anne's sex life before Henry
Jun 28 2009, 8:06 AM EDT | Post edited: Jun 28 2009, 8:06 AM EDT
"From my research, there is absolutely no evidence that Anne slept with anyone before Henry ..."
I entirely agree. Again this is an example of writers trying to make controversial statements. With novels and screenplays, a certain degree of responsibility surely goes with the job - being in charge of that kind of power of exposure, Millions of people will believe it is true, when in fact it is pure speculation at best, and just cashing in on a bit of smut at the worst.
SR
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Maggie-AnneB.
Maggie-AnneB.
6. RE: Anne's sex life before Henry
Jun 28 2009, 2:05 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 28 2009, 2:06 PM EDT
" It seems as though she also slept with Thomas Wyatt, as she tells him, never to speak of her. She was protecting him, and they were indeed the only survivors of her demise except her father."
That's in the show, Season 1 EP. 3. I have never read anything about Anne saying anything like that to Wyatt.
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theanneboleynfiles
theanneboleynfiles
7. RE: Anne's sex life before Henry
Jun 29 2009, 3:21 AM EDT | Post edited: Jun 29 2009, 3:21 AM EDT
tudorcrazy,
We're all desperate to know your sources because none of the main biographies I've read say anything like that - please can you tell us? Thanks.
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luvprue2
luvprue2
8. RE: Anne's sex life before Henry
Jun 29 2009, 4:28 AM EDT | Post edited: Jun 29 2009, 4:28 AM EDT
"According to my reading, she married Henry Percy, and the wedding was consummated. It seems as though she also slept with Thomas Wyatt, as she tells him, never to speak of her. She was protecting him, and they were indeed the only survivors of her demise except her father. Did Henry think she was a virgin, or did he not care, because he was so infatuated with her.
Why didn't he kill Percy and Wyatt, who did sleep with her? Any thoughts on this?"
A lot of historian do not believe Anne was a traditional virgin. According to Alison Weir The king and his court, Henry VIII once confess ( Before Anne fell out of favors with Henry VIII) that Anne had been corrupted in the French court. The king of France , Francis I stated that Anne didn't always live a virtuous life. Both comments seem to indicate that Anne was not the virgin, in my opinion. Anne denied that she had marriage Henry Percy, I think she did. Henry Percy once claim told his wife that he was pre-contract to Anne,and Henry Percy never had kids with his wife, nor did he seek out other women when his marriage fell apart. I think he was married to Anne, and in a weired way , he was being true to her. I also do not think it was a mere coincidence that Henry Percy turn back up at court prior to Anne fall. I think Cromwell wanted him there in hope that he would reveal the truth. Some historian claim Cromwell tried to save Anne by looking into claim, of marriage between Anne ,and Henry Percy made by his wife. I also think there might have been something going on between Wyatt and Anne, some historian claim that Wyatt confess to a relationship with Anne to the king, prior to him taking Anne as his wife. I think that it might have been true, since Wyatt survive the purge. As for Henry VIII's concern for Anne sexual past, I do not think he cared one way,or another.
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LadyJaneGrey.Faithxx
LadyJaneGrey.Faithxx
9. RE: Anne's sex life before Henry
Jun 29 2009, 5:26 AM EDT | Post edited: Jun 29 2009, 5:26 AM EDT
"In addition, Anne was too shrewd to yield up her virtue for anything less than an advantageous marriage. She did not want her sister's fate as a woman with a reputation for being 'easy' and a mistress the King eventually dropped and then married off. She definitely could not have held Henry off for seven years if she had a sexual history; someone would certainly have brought it to the King's attention as was done in Katheryn Howard's case."
Yes, didn't Anne sort of tease Henry to say, she would not bed him untill Catherine of Aragon was compleatly out of the picture. And Henry wanted her, and he wanted her bad, so he did everything he could, but Anne held off the sex towards Henry untill it was clear to her she would be next queen. Kind of sleeping her way to the top!
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Reggie19
Reggie19
10. RE: Anne's sex life before Henry
Jun 29 2009, 5:30 AM EDT | Post edited: Jun 29 2009, 5:30 AM EDT
"Kind of sleeping her way to the top!"
A woman's virginity was held in high regard in those days!
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angelosdaughter
angelosdaughter
11. RE: Anne's sex life before Henry
Jun 29 2009, 5:54 AM EDT | Post edited: Jun 29 2009, 6:03 AM EDT
"Yes, didn't Anne sort of tease Henry to say, she would not bed him untill Catherine of Aragon was compleatly out of the picture. And Henry wanted her, and he wanted her bad, so he did everything he could, but Anne held off the sex towards Henry untill it was clear to her she would be next queen. Kind of sleeping her way to the top!"
I wouldn't say that Anne slept her way to the top, because she didn't sleep with Wyatt or Percy and with Henry only after he had made it very clear that he was serious about marrying her. He had made it clear he would seek an annullment, later even defying the Pope, and ennobled her with a title, Marquess of Pembroke which she and her heirs would hold in their own right. After that, there was no going back. Anne was determined to hold out for marriage even before Henry looked her way. She never held herself cheaply, and did not want her sister's reputation. Since Henry and Wolsey broke up her relationship with Henry Percy (not because Henry was interested at that point, but because her parents wished her to marry into the Butler family on her paternal side to heal a family breach), which she hoped (vainly; his parents did not consider her of sufficent status to marry their son and had another bride in mind for him) would end in an honorable marriage, she decided after Henry became interested in her, that she would still hold out for marriage. Henry was not used to this. He probably thought that Anne, like her sister and the type of mistress he preferred, was 'easy'. When she made it clear she was not, he, besotted as he was with her, knew at that point that he would have to marry Anne if he was ever to satisfy the passion he had conceived for her. She was not actually teasing him, but holding out as any prudent woman of noble blood would, in that time, for marriage.
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angelosdaughter
angelosdaughter
12. RE: Anne's sex life before Henry
Jun 29 2009, 6:01 AM EDT | Post edited: Jun 29 2009, 6:13 AM EDT
"A woman's virginity was held in high regard in those days!"
...only among royalty, nobility, the titled. or the wealthy. Katheryn Howard' s story is indicative that virginity was not particularly prized among those who had no pretensions to the higher classes. They had property, money and family names at stake. The bride's virginity was as much of a guarantee as could be hoped for in a time before DNA testing, that any children born of the marriage would be legitimate heirs to those names, property, money, and titles. .
In Katheryn Howard's case, she was the motherless daugther of a poverty-stricken second son. There was no advantageous marriage planned for her, she was lett unschooled and unguarded and nature took its course, just as it did for the most part, among the common people. No one ever dreamed that the King would look to her as a wife.
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angelosdaughter
angelosdaughter
13. RE: Anne's sex life before Henry
Jun 29 2009, 6:39 AM EDT | Post edited: Jun 29 2009, 6:42 AM EDT
".... As for Henry VIII's concern for Anne sexual past, I do not think he cared one way,or another."
When Henry was ready to rid himself of a wife, he would say anything to justify his decision. If Anne had had a sexual history, there is no way she could have concealed it for seven years. In the hot house atmosphere of the Tudor court, someone would have informed him if she had a sexual history. It did not take very long after his marriage to Katheryn Howard before the story of her youthful indiscretions was brought to his attention. Henry Percy was so in love with Anne, that he would have told any story to his parents in the vain hope of being allowed to marry her. His parents did not consider her family background to be sufficiently grand or wealthy enough for their son. Her parents wanted to wed her to James, Lord Butler, a distant cousin to heal a family breach in her paternal line. There is no doubt that Percy was in love with Anne, but Anne was too smart to part with her virtue which was the only real value a woman of her status had besides her family connections in that time to secure a good marriage.
Cromwell at the time he went after Anne tried to dig up or manufacture any evidence he could contrive, but if he had been able to prove that there was a pre-contract between Percy and Anne, then he couldn't have accused her of adultery, because she would not have legally ever have been Henry's wife. Anne never considered Wyatt anything but a childhood friend, besides which he was already married and therefore could not offer Anne the marriage she was holding out for.
Again, Anne did not want to be like her sister, Mary. It was she whom Francois I called 'a great whore and infamous above all.' Continued...
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angelosdaughter
angelosdaughter
14. RE: Anne's sex life before Henry
Jun 29 2009, 6:45 AM EDT | Post edited: Jun 29 2009, 6:45 AM EDT
Continued...
Henry did care about Anne's sexual past; she could not have refused to give herself to him if she had one. Imagine how furious he would have been if after all he had to do to win Anne during those seven years in addtion to abstaining from any other mistress,, he found out that others had bedded her? He would never have married her, at the very least, and perhaps even have found some way to harm her for making such a fool of him..
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MsSquirrly
MsSquirrly
15. RE: Anne's sex life before Henry
Jun 29 2009, 10:54 AM EDT | Post edited: Jun 29 2009, 10:54 AM EDT
"A lot of historian do not believe Anne was a traditional virgin. According to Alison Weir The king and his court, Henry VIII once confess ( Before Anne fell out of favors with Henry VIII) that Anne had been corrupted in the French court. The king of France , Francis I stated that Anne didn't always live a virtuous life. Both comments seem to indicate that Anne was not the virgin, in my opinion. Anne denied that she had marriage Henry Percy, I think she did. Henry Percy once claim told his wife that he was pre-contract to Anne,and Henry Percy never had kids with his wife, nor did he seek out other women when his marriage fell apart. I think he was married to Anne, and in a weired way , he was being true to her. I also do not think it was a mere coincidence that Henry Percy turn back up at court prior to Anne fall. I think Cromwell wanted him there in hope that he would reveal the truth. Some historian claim Cromwell tried to save Anne by looking into claim, of marriage between Anne ,and Henry Percy made by his wife. I also think there might have been something going on between Wyatt and Anne, some historian claim that Wyatt confess to a relationship with Anne to the king, prior to him taking Anne as his wife. I think that it might have been true, since Wyatt survive the purge. As for Henry VIII's concern for Anne sexual past, I do not think he cared one way,or another."
Actually most historians do believe Anne was more than likely a traditional virgin. The quote that she had been "corrupted" in the french court was made in 1536 when she was falsely accused of adultery and at that point she was in disgrace and many things were said that were not true. Alison Weir herself says that while at the french court "no breath of scandal attached itself to her at the time."....
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MsSquirrly
MsSquirrly
16. RE: Anne's sex life before Henry
Jun 29 2009, 10:59 AM EDT | Post edited: Jun 29 2009, 11:30 AM EDT
...The pre-contract was never proved and Percy himself denied it when it was brought up later. Certainly Anne and Percy were said to be in love and had secretly betrothed to each other but there was no marriage. David Starkey says : "Percy and Anne had become secret but acknowledged lovers. They entered into a form of betrothal, being 'ensured together intending to marry'. Some have even thought - though it seems unlikely - that they anticipated the ceremony and slept together'

As for Wyatt, he wrote several poems about Anne but there is nothing recorded that Anne ever reciprocated his feelings.The flirtation may have been part of something which has been called "courtly love" - a chivalric practice of idolizing certain women. As Antonia Fraser says : "Whatever the extent of their romance, it belonged to the important but separate tradition of courtly love, conventional if ardent poetical professions,not the more down-to-earth world of the marriage market". The fact that Wyatt survived the purge surely shows there was nothing that could link her to him.
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MsSquirrly
MsSquirrly
17. RE: Anne's sex life before Henry
Jun 29 2009, 11:00 AM EDT | Post edited: Jun 29 2009, 11:00 AM EDT
"When Henry was ready to rid himself of a wife, he would say anything to justify his decision. If Anne had had a sexual history, there is no way she could have concealed it for seven years. In the hot house atmosphere of the Tudor court, someone would have informed him if she had a sexual history. It did not take very long after his marriage to Katheryn Howard before the story of her youthful indiscretions was brought to his attention. Henry Percy was so in love with Anne, that he would have told any story to his parents in the vain hope of being allowed to marry her. His parents did not consider her family background to be sufficiently grand or wealthy enough for their son. Her parents wanted to wed her to James, Lord Butler, a distant cousin to heal a family breach in her paternal line. There is no doubt that Percy was in love with Anne, but Anne was too smart to part with her virtue which was the only real value a woman of her status had besides her family connections in that time to secure a good marriage.
Cromwell at the time he went after Anne tried to dig up or manufacture any evidence he could contrive, but if he had been able to prove that there was a pre-contract between Percy and Anne, then he couldn't have accused her of adultery, because she would not have legally ever have been Henry's wife. Anne never considered Wyatt anything but a childhood friend, besides which he was already married and therefore could not offer Anne the marriage she was holding out for.
Again, Anne did not want to be like her sister, Mary. It was she whom Francois I called 'a great whore and infamous above all.' Continued..."
Totally agree AD
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theanneboleynfiles
theanneboleynfiles
18. RE: Anne's sex life before Henry
Jun 29 2009, 3:19 PM EDT | Post edited: Jun 29 2009, 3:20 PM EDT
"The flirtation may have been part of something which has been called "courtly love" - a chivalric practice of idolizing certain women"
I agree, MsSquirrly, with this reply and your earlier one. It's so easy for the whole "Courtly Love" ritual to be misunderstood and in fact it was used against Anne. Henry Norris and Mark Smeaton both flirted with her and idolized her and this was used to condemn her along with her ramblings in the Tower about these men and how on earth it could all be misconstrued.

As I said earlier, I do not believe that there is any evidence at all to suggest that Anne slept with other men before Henry and during her marriage with him. None of the biographies and texts I have read suggest that Anne was not a virgin. Scandal surrounded her sister, Mary Boleyn, who was well known for being "easy" at the French Court but Anne stayed out of it and was a respectable lady. I believe that Wyatt cared for Anne and he may have flirted with her, as part of the courtly love ritual, but any deep feelings he had for her were completely unrequited. Anne was an intelligent woman and would not have risked her marriage or her reputation.
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BoleynGirl
BoleynGirl
19. RE: Anne's sex life before Henry
Jul 1 2009, 4:49 PM EDT | Post edited: Jul 1 2009, 4:49 PM EDT
Was Anne married to Henry Percy??I thought not...They were lovers but who knows?? Do you find this valuable?    
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