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Discussion: KOA MARTYR OR STUBBORN?
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tudorcrazy |
KOA MARTYR OR STUBBORN?
Apr 6 2009, 10:44 AM EDT
Sorry, I started this thread last night and had typos. I am redoing it . Maybe Ms. Squirrly will edit the mistaken one out for me.I have watched every episode of the series, every day from the beginning. Also, have read all the standard books on KOA, and I can't make up my mind about her. She really was fierce, kind, gentle, and loved by the people. She also loved her daughter with all her heart. I can't help but think, if she would have divorced Henry. everyone would have been happy. Particularly Mary, who was the object of her love. Mary was emptionally and pychologially damaged by her Mother. If She said the dispensation wasn't enough, she could have saved face over the religious part, retired to a beautiful castle and been with Mary. Mary would never have been so heartbroken and abused, nor forced to wait on Elizabeth. By her withdrawal, I'm quite sure that Henry's marrige to Anne may never even taken place, as he was cooling toward her as soon as they were married. Anne's pregnancy is what made him finally run to alter. Back to KOA, I really think her pioty, and pride killed her and Mary. Mary's reign was a sad bloody time for England, that only ended in tadgedy. I think Katherine should have taken Mary back to Spain, to have a more normal life. I realize I am viewing this through 20th C eyes, and also a mother with 3 daughters, but as much as KOA was indeed strong, I don't see the point. She could have had a life of love, her daughter, and lived in her native country.Henry loved and respected her, and I think they would have had an amiable seperation. Sorry, she was a stubborn woman. She might have even lived to see Anne beheaded. That would have been poetic justice. She threw away happiness away with both hands. I still adore her, but the Katherine I love is MDK's portrayal. The real Katherine must of been a much less romantic figure, as she was set aside from the very beginning of her marriage. 4 out of 6 found this valuable. Do you?
Keyword tags:
katherine of Aragon
Martyr or Stubborn
Queen Katherine of Aragon
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Anne'sCurls |
1. RE: KOA MARTYR OR STUBBORN?
Apr 6 2009, 1:21 PM EDT
I've often asked this question to myself and to others as well. I tend to go back and forth on the issue. There is a part of me that wants to smack her for fighting so hard for a man who obviously did not want her. And yes I understand that she was mostly fighting for her daughters rights and her rights as Queen of England but in every production or book you read you always hear her talking about how much she loves Henry; its always I am your wife whether you like it or not, not I am the Queen of England whether you like it or not. I have also wondered if she had submitted if it would have been better for Mary, I can never keep this straight in my head but I don't recall if Henry wanted to declare her a bastard from the beginning or after KOA dug in her heels and it got on his nerves. I do think that after awhile it was just a thing of pride, similar to what Henry had when he married Anne. After all this time it was no longer about who was right or wrong but all the bullying and name calling they were going to stick to their guns; Henry marrying Anne, Katharine refusing to submit, just to show that they can not be bullied. I have also wondered what makes Katharine so different from Joan of France, who stepped aside because she could not have children. The only thing I can guess is that in her mind Mary was as good as any boy which is a theory that is more suited for the late 20th century not the 16th century. 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
Scarlett45 |
2. RE: KOA MARTYR OR STUBBORN?
Apr 6 2009, 2:21 PM EDT
I too have questioned KofA's stance against Henry. Looking at the fact that to step aside and leave Henry to marry another would have been lying to God in KofA's eyes. Saying the Pope was not authorized to approve their marriage and making herself not a wife but a whore for 20yrs and her daughter a bastard(a very HORRIBLE thing to be) I couldnt imagine a woman so religious, risking her immortal soul for Henry's favor. We have to remember KofA spent 7yrs after Arthur's death in limbo- she felt she DESERVED to be the Queen of England, and the only way Henry was going to get rid of her was through death. Being the daughter of Isabella of Castile KofA was progressive in believing women were fit to rule- she probably saw her daughter as the next Isabella would do anything to see that happen. Also, I do believe KofA was surprised at how Henry treated Mary during the whole ordeal- KofA probably never thought Henry would grow into the tyrant he became. In KofA's perspective, at the end of the day, whatever suffering Henry put her and Mary through it was worth it to be true to their religious beliefs because they would be rewarded in heaven. I see KoA as proud, which she had every right to be, but I cannot fault her for sticking to her beliefs and not giving into hypocrisy as others did to save themselves. Neither do I fault Mary for signing the oath, nor do I think KoA would. As Mary was her father's subject and daughter rather than another countries princess and royal equal(as KofA was). It was a hard situation for everyone. 4 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you? |
lettice |
3. RE: KOA MARTYR OR STUBBORN?
Apr 6 2009, 2:58 PM EDT
This is a good question with I'm sure many answers & opinions.It is difficult to speculate and/or judge with 21 century eyes. I often asked myself why did KoA fight so much? To me it was a losing battle. However, her religious beliefs and her sense of righteousness gave her no other alternative. Today we can say: "OK, so you don't want me, I don't want you. Let's go our separate ways & call it a day." KoA had so much vested in her marriage & her status. She also had serious concerns for her daughter's future and felt Mary was sole heir to the throne. To throw it all away would have been foolish in her eyes. The suffering that followed was probably viewed by her as a test of strength. She felt God was on her side. 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
MsSquirrly |
4. RE: KOA MARTYR OR STUBBORN?
Apr 6 2009, 3:21 PM EDT
| Post edited: Apr 6 2009, 6:59 PM EDT
In David Starkey's Six Wives, The Queens of Henry VIII, he writes about Katherine`s last dying hours as described by Ambassador Chapuys who was by her side and says:"In these conversations, Chapuys was worried about tiring Catherine. But she insisted on prolonging them and their exchanges became more and more frank...... She was worried about More and Fisher - the 'good men [who] had suffered in persons and goods ' - and about the mounting tide of heresy which threatened to engulf England. Such things were anathema to her. But they had arisen because of her steadfastness. Had she, she now asked herself been right? Or was her behaviour a mere selfish intransigence, which God was punishing by visiting these horrors on her adoptive country?...... Catherine's original doubts, however, were right. She had acted her part from the best of motives. And bearing in mind her character, she could scarcely have behaved otherwise. Nevertheless, the awful truth remains that the Reformation, and all it entailed was her work as much as Henry's and Anne's." So it would seem that even Katherine questioned herself in her dying hours. Perhaps its a little of both but as Starkey says, it was just not in her character to do otherwise. 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Anne'sCurls |
5. RE: KOA MARTYR OR STUBBORN?
Apr 6 2009, 3:39 PM EDT
I dont necessarily think Katharine should be blamed for the reformation, to me its like blaming Adolf Hiter's parents for the holocaust.
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MsSquirrly |
6. RE: KOA MARTYR OR STUBBORN?
Apr 6 2009, 3:52 PM EDT
"I dont necessarily think Katharine should be blamed for the reformation, to me its like blaming Adolf Hiter's parents for the holocaust. "well I wouldn`t compare the reformation with the holocaust either. For that matter the reformation was built by MANY people from the excesses of some of the catholic abbeys to the protestant movement. They were like pieces in a puzzle without....this happening...that wouldnt happen...etc and so on. 3 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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tudorcrazy |
7. RE: KOA MARTYR OR STUBBORN?
Apr 6 2009, 4:32 PM EDT
Sorry again for the poor editing. I have read everyone's posts, and appreciate the views. In the end of all this, I still just feel sad. Sad for all of them. It was Katherine's stubborn piety that caused the death and destruction of all around her including her daughter. She caused the death of More, Fisher, her own agonizing exile from her husband and daughter. If she just let the marriage be annulled, she could have been happy. Henry would have remained close to her, as ultimately he always loved and respected her, because she was real royalty compared to him. He would have provided for her safety, and comfort, seen Mary frequently, and then eventually restored her to some title. She could have married and be loved. Katherine could have remarried, and been musch happier with an older man, that she could share her love and religion, and stepchildren with. No. the more I think about it, I think it was selfish, and she made a lot of people make endless sacrifices for her pride. Who knows if he would have even married Anne if she had given way. It might of saved Anne's life too. Henry would annul his marriage, have Anne, tire of her, when she had Elizabeth, and then divorce her too. Everyone would have been much better. But I guess the tragedy of the whole story has unhinged my thinking process. I can't change what happened, but I sure wish they had. So tragic. Everyone in the end was unhappy.3 out of 5 found this valuable. Do you? |
CarolineZ |
8. RE: KOA MARTYR OR STUBBORN?
Apr 6 2009, 6:13 PM EDT
Besides wanting to protect Mary's rights, I think she thought that Henry was endanging his mortal soul.
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Jes89 |
9. RE: KOA MARTYR OR STUBBORN?
Apr 6 2009, 6:45 PM EDT
My opinions about these are:First, Mary should be queen, that was her vision, she raised Mary to be a queen.If Anne had give Henry a son, her chance to rule would be minimal,that was something Katherine would not accept. second,Anne and Henry would marry if she accepted the divorce, he wanted a son and not an affair.If wasn't anne,could be Jane,or any other lady of the court.But he would marry any woman he wanted to have his male heir. third,it was not only her pride.She was being accused of something she didn't(some of us believe),she was virgin when she married Henry,so she said.She would still fight for what she thought was true. I don't believe she caused More and fischer's death.They didn't accepted what henry wanted,so Henry get rid of them.More knew Henry for a long time and knew the risc to not accept his orders. She was stubborn.She fought for what she thought was right,and IMO i think her questioning in the end was very normal.She was so devoted,but all seemed to not have an end.And until those days we feel ourselves like her felt, when we have some big problem and it's not seem to resolve. Do you find this valuable? |
Conyle |
10. RE: KOA MARTYR OR STUBBORN?
Apr 6 2009, 6:50 PM EDT
I'm reading this thread with interest. I didn't realize this many people had conflicted feelings about KofA as myself. I too go back and forth on it. My first thought is always along the lines of; "she could have saved a lot of people including herself a lot of pain if she had just accepted the fact that Henry was done with her and moved on". But then I think; "why should she be the one to give in to his horrible demands? Why should she have to accept that her entire married life was some kind of lie?!" In the end, I blame the Catholic Church. If they didn't have this horrible rule against people being able to divorce, it could have had an entire different outcome. Then she wouldn't have had to say and accept that her marriage was a lie and Mary a bastard. I say "could have" had a different outcome, because there's the chance that Katherine wouldn't have accepted divorce instead of annulment either. 1 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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tudorcrazy |
11. RE: KOA MARTYR OR STUBBORN?
Apr 6 2009, 10:45 PM EDT
"Besides wanting to protect Mary's rights, I think she thought that Henry was endanging his mortal soul."Who cares, Henry didn't he didn't believe in any of this nonsense. He wanted to destroy the abbeys to fill his coffer so he could do what he wanted. Hunting warring, and wenching. He was a hypocite, and a made a fool of KOA, because of her worry about his mortal soul. In reaity, his immoral soul. He had no respect in the end, and showed it by humiliating Mary, and everyone who loved him. He was worse with Anne, as he grew to really hate her. He was no father to Elizabeth either, In fact he was awful to Edward too. What a selfish SOB, and KOA had good cause to worry about his mortal soul, but she should have let go, as Henry was a helpless cause. It's true she couldn't have done otherwise, but she needed to snap out of it! Do you find this valuable? |
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tudorcrazy |
12. RE: KOA MARTYR OR STUBBORN?
Apr 6 2009, 11:04 PM EDT
yes the Catholic church was the problem, as always. They have Nothing to do with Jesus Christ's vision of the evolved Christian person. He did not discriminate against women. divorce, or encourage the creation og of a polital hierachery, that was based on lies and hypocisy. Celebacy, and prists being celebite would certainly an idea a Jewish porphet would find alien in thought or practice. Christianity as told by Jesus's values would abhorred the Pope in Rome, the power, wealth, and religion based on the sale of indulgences. Jesus believed all people were equal in G-d's eyes, and where worthy of G-d's love. He would have been horrified by Queen Isabella's religious genocide of Jews, the vatican, and everything else that was supposedly in his name. Typical political corruption, and chauvinism. No I can't accept it, and Ms, Squirrly, I agree that KOA saw te troubles she made for all around her. G-d, if there is one, did forsake her. Or so it seems to me.
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Anne'sCurls |
13. RE: KOA MARTYR OR STUBBORN?
Apr 6 2009, 11:16 PM EDT
Hey guys lets remember there are some Catholics here and respect their religion....I dont think the church was the problem i think the Pope being afraid was the problem. If this had been any other time it would have gone like this: King: I want a divorce Pope: On what grounds King:My wife snores in her sleep Pope:Granted 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Truth84 |
14. RE: KOA MARTYR OR STUBBORN?
Apr 7 2009, 2:48 AM EDT
I don't blame her, she was protecting her and Mary's interest and rigtfully so. No one saw henry breaking with the church. I think she acted reasonably and she thought she could wait henry out until he tired of Anne and stayed married. Who at the time outside of the Bolelyn faction saw henry divorcing a wife of royalty for a lower noble subject. Plus she knew she could use her nephew as a playing card. Like I said no one expected henry to divorce her without the pope's consent and break with rome completely
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Truth84 |
15. RE: KOA MARTYR OR STUBBORN?
Apr 7 2009, 3:07 AM EDT
"yes the Catholic church was the problem, as always. They have Nothing to do with Jesus Christ's vision of the evolved Christian person. He did not discriminate against women. divorce, or encourage the creation og of a polital hierachery, that was based on lies and hypocisy. Celebacy, and prists being celebite would certainly an idea a Jewish porphet would find alien in thought or practice. Christianity as told by Jesus's values would abhorred the Pope in Rome, the power, wealth, and religion based on the sale of indulgences. Jesus believed all people were equal in G-d's eyes, and where worthy of G-d's love. He would have been horrified by Queen Isabella's religious genocide of Jews, the vatican, and everything else that was supposedly in his name. Typical political corruption, and chauvinism. No I can't accept it, and Ms, Squirrly, I agree that KOA saw te troubles she made for all around her. G-d, if there is one, did forsake her. Or so it seems to me."that was very insulting to catholics. Not surprising for this site though that there is an anti-catholic tone in threads and yet I have had my threads locked and my statements have had valid points and didn't attack people's beliefs, religion and culture. Yes there were bad popes and things the church did that was wrong but there was and still is good that it does. Open schools, charities, provide help to poor, shelter yet a lot of the Anti-Catholics on this site forget to mention those parts. Let me tell you a story an old friend of mine gave bith to her son 3 yrs ago. She was in the army , had little money and she is Pentacostal and she thinks catholiccs idolize and are hethen, etc guess who donated a crib to her- the catholic church nuns came by and visited her in the hospital. The Church of England doesn't have a clean record either and was established and based on the purpose of serving the the Royalty and putting the money in their hands. It may be different now 1 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Truth84 |
16. RE: KOA MARTYR OR STUBBORN?
Apr 7 2009, 3:22 AM EDT
and discriminating against catholics isn't right either. Some of you praise and defense Anne Boleyn yet she was the mistress and claim her to be a heroine for fighting and speaking out and yet want to debate about Katherine who actually loved her husband,and fought to keep her family together , u know the right reasons. Isn't that virtues that u find in christianity. U attack Katherine for the same reasons you praise Anne for. HYPOCRITES, I HATE EM. You praise the MAry Magdalene (Anne)and persecute the Mother Mary (Katherine). Metaphor. Look at your own church before you criticize others.
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tudorcrazy |
17. RE: KOA MARTYR OR STUBBORN?
Apr 7 2009, 3:48 AM EDT
Please forgive my insensitivy about Caholicism.It was not intended in that vein, but quite the opposite. My mother was attended by nuns near her death, and I am not Christion. What I mean is that in those days, all the pooes had children which they passed their power to. That the rituals of the church were very corrupt, and went unchecked in everyway. KOA was depending on this church ro protect her, and Thomas more, and sacred texts, and the "living culpaple communiy" as More put it. In the end it was the church, that failed her and Henry, who should have taken stonger decisive action with teeth. Instead they postponed as long as possible, and considered politics. Yes, I believe all religions are corrupt. That's why I chose a more personal spirituality, and still maintain that KOA should have put an end to the madness. Please forgive my seemingly insensitivity to Catholicism, but I am always suspicious of religion in general, because of their attitudes and policies of women, which they parctice in the past and present. In my opinion, G-d could be woman, but then why would men write the rules? Just today I saw a teeange girl flooged in Pakistan, for leaving her house without her husband. I disagree with all male oriented religion. No prejudice. They are all guilty.only my opinion respectively.
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tudorcrazy |
18. RE: KOA MARTYR OR STUBBORN?
Apr 7 2009, 3:56 AM EDT
I am not seeing Anne as a great reformer. The English church was her way to get Henry his divorce to further the Boleyn faction at court. She embraced reform for selfish relations. My only point is that if KOA was less stubborn both the children would not have been as damaged, and Anne might have lived, when Henry unbloubtably tired of her.
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hohumpigsbum |
19. RE: KOA MARTYR OR STUBBORN?
Apr 7 2009, 4:55 AM EDT
But I really doubt it would have been much better, Anne hated both Katherine and Mar. Also, Henry had broken every other promise he had made to Katherine why should he keep this one? Agreeing to an anullment would be saying their marriage had never existed. So Katherine would have been comitting incest for 20 years, Mary would be a bastard, and Katherine would have just been Henry's mistress. Katherine also loved Henry, and she was brought up to believe divorce was a sin.I think she was very brave to say "no" - she didn't just bend over backwards to do what he wanted. Her bravery and efinace is one of the many reasons I admire her. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
