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Maggie-AnneB. |
I've Just Read About Anne Boleyn & The Unknown Pregnancy
Apr 5 2009, 10:39 PM EDT
| Post edited: Apr 5 2009, 10:54 PM EDT
Reading today Alison Weir's Henry VIII bio, I came across something interesting. I know that there has been another thread about this subject, but I just felt like having another one. Excerpts from Alison Weir: Henry VIII- "In fact, contrary to the opinion of nearly every modern historian, Henry had every reason to be pleased with Anne, for the evidence strongly suggests that she was pregnant again. Just as she had conceived rapidly after the birth of Elizabeth, so her reconciliation with the King after the miscarriage in January had quickly borne fruit. Henry made what was probably an oblique reference to her pregnancy that April, when he rounded on Chapuys for suggesting that God had not thought fit to send him male issue because He had ordained that England should have a female succession. "Am I not a man like other men? Am I not? Am I not?" shouted Henry. "You do not know all my secrets." On 25 April, in a letter sent to his Ambassador in Rome, Henry announced, "the likelihood and appearance that God will send us heirs male," implying that his "most dear and entirely beloved wife the Queen" was once more expecting a child. Had Anne conceived towards the end of February, it would have been possible for the King to state this with some certainty, and clearly he was eager to do so. In the past, royal conceptions had not normally been the subject of official announcements, but the urgent resolution of the succession problem was a matter of vital national importance meriting widespread publicity. On a personal level, too, the King was anxious to show the world that he was capable of fathering an heir, and also to justify his marriage to Anne. It is unthinkable therefore that he, a normally discreet man in such matters, would have made such a statement, knowing that his ambassadors would make it public, if there had been no certain hope of a child." Continuing... 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?
Keyword tags:
Anne Boleyn
Henry VIII
Thomas Cromwell
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Maggie-AnneB. |
1. RE: I've Just Read About Anne Boleyn & The Unknown Pregnancy
Apr 5 2009, 10:53 PM EDT
Now I am a little mad at Thomas Cromwell.... But I know that it was a dog eat dog world. May the better man/women win. If it wasn't Anne, then it would have been Cromwell."The news that the Queen might yet bear a son and so render herself invincible must have caused Cromwell considerable alarm, and given him the impetus to bring her down while he had the chance. He was keeping all his options open: at the end of April, he and his fellow conspirators were still discussing the possibility of the royal marriage being annulled" "Anne was doomed. In the normal course of justice, her pregnancy would have saved her from a death sentence, or at least postponed it, but this child could never be allowed to live, because the King would not dare risk a disputed succession. Nor, however, could he be seen as a monarch who put an innocent baby to death, which is perhaps the reason why some of the documents relating to Anne's trial were destroyed. No further mention is made of her pregnancy, and it is perhaps significant that she was not made to undergo an examination by a panel of matrons before her execution, as Lady Jane Grey did in 1553. Anne herself never mentioned her condition while in the Tower, but neither did she make any reference to her daughter Elizabeth. In both cases, she must have realised that to do so would be futile, for Henry had hardened his heart against her." Done. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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TillyT2 |
2. RE: I've Just Read About Anne Boleyn & The Unknown Pregnancy
Apr 6 2009, 8:57 AM EDT
"Now I am a little mad at Thomas Cromwell.... But I know that it was a dog eat dog world. May the better man/women win. If it wasn't Anne, then it would have been Cromwell.uummmm not sure ... if nearly every other historian disagrees - then it could well be because there was in fact no pregnancy after all, I'm not really convinced by those two pieces of evidence. Ideas anyone? Do you find this valuable? |
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beardedlady |
3. RE: I've Just Read About Anne Boleyn & The Unknown Pregnancy
Apr 6 2009, 9:12 AM EDT
That's certainly an interesting theory from Weir, but I am not sure that I am agree. I interpreted Henry's comment to be a defensive knee-jerk reaction to his rumored impotency. After the debacle during Anne's trial when George mistakenly read out loud the references to Henry being impotent, I think he knew there were many rumors floating around that he could not bare a son. His comment to Chapuys could have merely been him trying to set the record straight....something he would have tried to do whether Anne was pregnant or not. 4 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Anne'sCurls |
4. RE: I've Just Read About Anne Boleyn & The Unknown Pregnancy
Apr 6 2009, 1:33 PM EDT
Hmm Im a little confused, in your first post you said that Anne might have been pregnant for a 4th or 5th time. But then in your next one it seems that no matter what Henry and Cromwell were intent on killing her despite her pregnancy.That screaming session between Chapuys and Henry seemed a little weird, at first I thought it was just him being insulted but then he went on about how the Emperor had to recognize Anne * it was like "where did that come from"? The only thing I can guess is that it would have been an insult to the emperor to do so and Henry wanted to suggest such an insult. I think I have heard about Anne having a secret pregnancy towards the end of her life before. But how exactly would she get pregnant again if Henry wouldnt even touch her? 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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luvprue2 |
5. RE: I've Just Read About Anne Boleyn & The Unknown Pregnancy
Apr 8 2009, 5:47 AM EDT
"Reading today Alison Weir's Henry VIII bio, I came across something interesting. I know that there has been another thread about this subject, but I just felt like having another one.Yes , I have read that Henry VIII made a oblique reference to a pregnancy that April. But he might not have been talking about Anne , Henry VIII could have been referring to his life with his future wife, Jane Seymore, Imo. But on the other hand if Anne had became pregnant in January/February, she would have been 3 , or 4 month in May. Anne might have lost the baby. if that was the case than the baby could had been deform, like Retha M. Warnicke speculated about in her book,The Rise and Fall of Anne Boleyn? It would explain Anne's quick downfall, the charges of incest, adultery and witchcraft. Henry would want to put the blame on someone else, in case people found out that the baby was deform. I 1 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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BoleynGirl |
6. RE: I've Just Read About Anne Boleyn & The Unknown Pregnancy
Apr 8 2009, 11:36 AM EDT
"I think I have heard about Anne having a secret pregnancy towards the end of her life before. But how exactly would she get pregnant again if Henry wouldnt even touch her?"I have the same question... 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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dezsofi68nt |
7. RE: I've Just Read About Anne Boleyn & The Unknown Pregnancy
Apr 10 2009, 5:48 AM EDT
"I have the same question..."I have always believed that history is written only on what is known or on some basis of historical knowledge. All through history there seem to be stops and starts of "facts". It is not unreasonable to think that much of written history has been changed, ripped out of books and rewritten to allow a particular line of ideas to follow through. If parts of the written text from Annes trial were ripped out and disposed of, doesn't it follow that the knowledge it contained could have been injurious to those wanting to get rid of her? i,.e a pregnancy? However, if the king had known that Anne was pregnant, he would never have allowed her to be tried or condemned as his need for a male heir far outweighed his need for revenge. He would never have allowed his unborn child to die, even if he thought it might not be his, he would have waited until after it's birth and then condemed her or sent her to a nunnery, if it had been a boy. Written history if only based on what info we have now Every day, new avenues of finding the hidden truth are being found. Look at what has occured with such things as the Dead Sea Scrolls, and other historical artifacts. After centuries, history as we knew it, has changed. Why not with Anne? 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
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luvprue2 |
8. RE: I've Just Read About Anne Boleyn & The Unknown Pregnancy
Jun 14 2009, 3:37 AM EDT
"I have always believed that history is written only on what is known or on some basis of historical knowledge. All through history there seem to be stops and starts of "facts". It is not unreasonable to think that much of written history has been changed, ripped out of books and rewritten to allow a particular line of ideas to follow through. If parts of the written text from Annes trial were ripped out and disposed of, doesn't it follow that the knowledge it contained could have been injurious to those wanting to get rid of her? i,.e a pregnancy? However, if the king had known that Anne was pregnant, he would never have allowed her to be tried or condemned as his need for "I agree with you about history, and how it changes. People should remember, it's His Story, it's told from the prespective and view point of one person/or persons. However, I disagree with you over the idea that Henry would not have condemned Anne if she was pregnant. prior to the death of Queen Katherine, Henry was seeking to get rid of Anne, without having to return to Katherine . He found he couldn't leave Anne without returning to K.OA. So he was likely through with her,and likely realize that any kid had by Anne would not be accepted,and would still be consider a bastard to the rest of the world outside of England. So at the point, I do not think Henry wanted a male heir by Anne anymore. Which is probably one of the reason he chose to conduct his affair with Jane in a room close to Anne, in which she was sure to walk in on him and Jane. It was a room, in which was so close to Anne's room that she could hear the people inside. Now why would Henry had chosen that room? He knew Anne would catch them. He wanted Anne to lose the baby so he could be free of her for good. If Anne had became pregnant after that, he would have denied the child was his,because he had move on from Anne to Jane,and wanted a heir that the people would accept. Do you find this valuable? |
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d13charlie |
9. RE: I've Just Read About Anne Boleyn & The Unknown Pregnancy
Jun 30 2009, 1:24 AM EDT
| Post edited: Jun 30 2009, 1:27 AM EDT
"I have the same question..."Weir suggests that Henry sympathized with Anne over her miscarriage in January 1536, which was said to have been the result of her shock/concern about Henry in his jousting accident (he was unconscious for two hours and Anne was told about this) and her distress about his being unfaithful. He made several telling comments to ambassadors, etc, suggesting she was pregnant again after this January miscarriage and the missing information from her trial and certain elements of her pre-execution treatment suggest she was pregnant. It appears (and Weir presents evidence on this) that Anne realized the futility of approaching Henry and appealing through their children (Elizabeth and an unborn child). He was also about to lose his illegitimate son, Henry Fitzroy while all of this was going on (Henry was close to Fitzroy and distraught that the boy was sick). Potentially this lead to his erratic behavior in general and the fact that Cromwell presented his evidence of Anne's infidelity very effectively. It was weak evidence (even Anne's enemies didn't believe she was guilty) but Cromwell played Henry expertly. Do you find this valuable? |
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luvprue2 |
10. RE: I've Just Read About Anne Boleyn & The Unknown Pregnancy
Jun 30 2009, 5:22 AM EDT
"Weir suggests that Henry sympathized with Anne over her miscarriage in January 1536, which was said to have been the result of her shock/concern about Henry in his jousting accident (he was unconscious for two hours and Anne was told about this) and her distress about his being unfaithful. He made several telling comments to ambassadors, etc, suggesting she was pregnant again after this January miscarriage and the missing information from her trial and certain elements of her pre-execution treatment suggest she was pregnant. It appears (and Weir presents evidence on this) that Anne realized the futility of approaching Henry and appealing through their children (Elizabeth and an unborn child). He was also about to lose his illegitimate son, Henry Fitzroy while all of this was going on (Henry was close to Fitzroy and distraught that the boy was sick). Potentially this lead to his erratic behavior in general and the fact that Cromwell presented his evidence of Anne's infidelity very effectively. It was weak evidence (even Anne's enemies didn't believe she was guilty) but Cromwell played Henry expertly."..True. But was she pregnant , or did she fake it? Did Cromwell convince Henry VIII that the baby wasn't his? or did Anne miscarry a deform baby? I can see Henry VIII believing Cromwell, rumors were going around that Anne poison KOA, and Thomas Boleyn once told Cromwell that thing would go better for Anne if KOA was dead (REL Henry VIII by Derek Wilson), He made that statement weeks before KOA had died. Than Princess Mary was sick,and some people believe she was poison. Than Henry VIII only son became sick. If all of them ,KOA,Mary, Henry Fitzroy ,and Henry VIII were all to die, that would leave Elizabeth as queen. so Anne and her family would be the only one who will benefit from their death. So I can see Henry VIII believing Cromwell. Thomas Boleyn had been known for using poison to deal with his enemies in the past, Do you find this valuable? |
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s.rochie |
11. RE: I've Just Read About Anne Boleyn & The Unknown Pregnancy
Jun 30 2009, 8:41 AM EDT
"I have always believed that history is written only on what is known or on some basis of historical knowledge. All through history there seem to be stops and starts of "facts". It is not unreasonable to think that much of written history has been changed, ripped out of books and rewritten to allow a particular line of ideas to follow through. If parts of the written text from Annes trial were ripped out and disposed of, doesn't it follow that the knowledge it contained could have been injurious to those wanting to get rid of her? i,.e a pregnancy? However, if the king had known that Anne was pregnant, he would never have allowed her to be tried or condemned as his need for a male heir far outweighed his need for revenge. He would never have allowed his unborn child to die, even if he thought it might not be his, he would have waited until after it's birth and then condemed her or sent her to a nunnery, if it had been a boy. Written history if only based on what info we have now Every day, new avenues of finding the hidden truth are being found. Look at what has occured with such things as the Dead Sea Scrolls, and other historical artifacts. After centuries, history as we knew it, has changed. Why not with Anne?"Yes, excellent! That puts it into perspective. Henry was shrewd, he would have waited. after all he had the power to order things the way it suited him. SR Do you find this valuable? |