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Honey-Beezz
Honey-Beezz
Wolsey-sympathy?
Mar 11 2009, 2:25 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 11 2009, 2:25 PM EDT
I was just wondering did anyone else feel sympathy for Wolsey when Henry turned on him? As a priest,he did have a hidden wife,and perhaps his agendas were not always for Henry,but for himself. Still,to cast out a man who had worked most of his life for the betterment of his King,Wolsey really got the shaft!! Do you think Henry had just waited for the right opportunity to come alone to take over Wolsey's holdings,using Anne as the excuse. 1  out of 1 found this valuable. Do you?    
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HeroineAddict
HeroineAddict
1. RE: Wolsey-sympathy?
Mar 11 2009, 2:33 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 11 2009, 2:35 PM EDT
I've always had quite a lot of sympathy for Wolsey. Certainly, he was corrupt, but most people in positions of power were back then (and arguably still are). As you say, Wolsey spent a good deal of his life working for the good of Henry and his realm, and only fell out of favour because he couldn't give his King what he wanted, when he wanted it, all the time...which just wasn't good enough for our Henry. There always had to be a scapegoat and Wolsey was one of many that would follow him to disgrace and death; Henry really threw him under the bus. Do you find this valuable?    
TillyT2
TillyT2
2. RE: Wolsey-sympathy?
Mar 11 2009, 5:54 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 11 2009, 5:54 PM EDT
Yes I did feel alot of sympathy for him, I thought Sam Neil did a fabulous job with the charactor and I found it heartrending when he was discarded and abandoned by all and sundry including those he thought were his friends.
'You often boast to me that you have the King's ear and often have fun with him, freely and according to your whims.This is like having fun with tamed lions-often it is harmless,but just as often there is fear of harm.Often he roars in rage for no reason,and suddenly the fun becomes fatal.' Thomas More
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Maggie-AnneB.
Maggie-AnneB.
3. RE: Wolsey-sympathy?
Mar 11 2009, 10:02 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 11 2009, 10:02 PM EDT
Sam Neil was fabulous as Wolsey! He made me hate him, and then pity him. Wolsey was just the scapegoat, Henry I'm sure regretted arresting Wolsey and Wolsey dying. Cromwell (I seem to bring him up alot..haha!) was a scapegoat too for the Cleves disaster. Henry had to blame someone, and it was NEVER himself. What a jagoff. Although, after Cromwell's execution, Henry did express sympathy about it. That was about the closets Henry ever came to saying, "Whoops my bad!" Do you find this valuable?    
Honey-Beezz
Honey-Beezz
4. RE: Wolsey-sympathy?
Mar 12 2009, 7:30 AM EDT | Post edited: Mar 12 2009, 7:30 AM EDT
Thank You for your comments; I'm not the only one then who thinks good King Hal was a Stinker!!! Do you find this valuable?    

LadyJane1961
5. RE: Wolsey-sympathy?
Mar 12 2009, 7:36 AM EDT | Post edited: Mar 12 2009, 7:36 AM EDT
I HAVE NO SYMPATHY FOR WOLSEY. WHATEVR HE DID FOR THE KING HE DIDFOR HIMSELF, WHAT HE COULD GET OUT OF IT. MAYBE BE POPE ON DAY. NO I HAVE NO SYMPATHY FOR HIM. 2  out of 4 found this valuable. Do you?    

LadyJane1961
6. RE: Wolsey-sympathy?
Mar 12 2009, 7:54 AM EDT | Post edited: Mar 12 2009, 7:54 AM EDT
"Thank You for your comments; I'm not the only one then who thinks good King Hal was a Stinker!!!"
YOU CANT BLAME HENRY FOR EVERYTHING!!!!
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Honey-Beezz
Honey-Beezz
7. RE: Wolsey-sympathy?
Mar 12 2009, 8:33 AM EDT | Post edited: Mar 12 2009, 8:33 AM EDT
"YOU CANT BLAME HENRY FOR EVERYTHING!!!!"
It's true,I can't blame Henry for everything,but,if you look at his track record with wives,and his councils,he did a lot of face-abouts.
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HeroineAddict
HeroineAddict
8. RE: Wolsey-sympathy?
Mar 12 2009, 9:06 AM EDT | Post edited: Mar 12 2009, 9:06 AM EDT
Personally, I find it pretty easy to blame Henry for a lot of things during his reign. Maybe not everything, but certainly most. Do you find this valuable?    
MsSquirrly
MsSquirrly
9. RE: Wolsey-sympathy?
Mar 12 2009, 10:04 AM EDT | Post edited: Mar 12 2009, 10:04 AM EDT
Sam Neill certainly showed the human side to Wolsey ...but I think the real Wolsey let power go to his head. He had really been the power behind the throne in Henry's youth and didn't calculate Henry taking back his power and being influenced by others. He completely underestimated the Boleyns and paid the price. However they in turn paid the price of underestimating Cromwell and so it went on. Ambition which became complacency did all of them in....in the end. You had to be alert to the what was going on in the intimate circle of the King or pay the consequences.

I don't think you can totally blame Henry....you have to blame the flawed system of personal monarchy and the times in which he lived. He did believe he was appointed by God and therefore above everyone else. He had no empathy ...he was never taught it. I do believe that empathy is a learned behaviour.

As Wyatt said so aptly..."around the throne the thunder rolls". If you have ambitions to be in the vicinity of the throne ...be prepared for the fall out.
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Maggie-AnneB.
Maggie-AnneB.
10. RE: Wolsey-sympathy?
Mar 12 2009, 10:36 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 12 2009, 10:36 PM EDT
"YOU CANT BLAME HENRY FOR EVERYTHING!!!!"
I do blame Henry for JUST ABOUT everything. He was the King of England, and that's no excuse for the things he did, the crimes he himself committed. He messed up so many times and it was ALWAYS someone else that had to clean up the mess. Cromwell, for example, got Henry his divorce from Anne of Cleves, and Cromwell still lost his head. Henry didn't like Anne, for basically no apparent reason. He killed Cromwell, and I blame him, Henry, for the Cleves problem. If Anne Boleyn did sleep around with other men, I blame Henry for that. He was a terror of a husband! I see no reason why people should make excuses for him. If he thought himself so powerful, so "Manly", then he should have been a man and taken responsibility for everything. LadyJane1961 you can take this paragraph as a attack on you, but it isn't, and I am not trying to change your opinion. Also, us Non-Henry Likers, should be allowed to not like him.
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Hever
Hever
11. RE: Wolsey-sympathy?
Mar 13 2009, 2:29 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 13 2009, 2:29 PM EDT
That's all very well but if I was to start saying the same sort of things about his daughter Mary it would start world war 3 on this wiki. I see all sides of everyone, and I'm not biased. Do you find this valuable?    
Reggie19
Reggie19
12. RE: Wolsey-sympathy?
Mar 13 2009, 2:50 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 13 2009, 2:50 PM EDT
I think people find it easier to blame Henry because he's one person, rather than blaming Cromwell for Anne's demise, Wolsey for not getting Henry his divorce from KOA and for seperating Anne and Percy, KOA for not submitting to Henry when everything grew bleak around her, Anne not learning to keep her emotions in check, Katherine Howard for her infidelities... yada yada yada, see what i mean, it's just a lot easier to blame Henry that way.

But i do personally believe that Henry has to shoulder some of the blame, all those people who died, were tortured, emotionally scarred, how can we possibly say that Henry was right about every single one of those people, that he was right to execute More for not accepting the Act, right for allowing advisers like Wolsey and Cromwell to shoulder the blame while he got off scot free, i'm not attacking anyone either, but i have to say Henry isn't blameless, nor is he at fault for everything that went wrong, lets just all be thankful the monarchy haven't as much control anymore as they did then, otherwise all of us on this site would be executed for treason!
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MsSquirrly
MsSquirrly
13. RE: Wolsey-sympathy?
Mar 13 2009, 3:28 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 13 2009, 3:28 PM EDT
John Foxe who was born c. 1517 & wrote the Book of Martyrs said of Henry :

"While good counsel was about him, and could be heard, the king did much good. So again, when sinister and wicked counsel, under subtle and crafty pretences, had gotten once the foot in, thrusting truth and verity out of the prince's ears,how much religion and all good things went prosperously forward before,so much, on the contrary side, all revolted backward again."

So he is saying that Henry was influenced by the people around him and saying he was not totally to blame for the horrors perpetrated in his name. These were times when religion, politics & other dynasty issues were all merged into one government. In our modern times all these issues are kept separate whereas in Henry's court it was a boiling pot of many influences. I am not excusing Henry but just like Mary 1 - there are more factors involved than just personality.
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LadyJane1961
14. RE: Wolsey-sympathy?
Mar 13 2009, 3:36 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 13 2009, 3:36 PM EDT
I GUESS I HAVE TO EXPLAIN MYSELF YOU CANT BLAME HENRY FOR EVERYTHING I DONT MEAN DONT BLAME HENRY FOR ANYTHING. HENRY DID ALOT OF THINGS THAT I DONT AGREE WITH BUT HIS COUNCIL DID THINGS BEHIND HIS BACK JUST LIKE OUR POLITICIANS . WOLSEY AND CROMWELL DID THINGS IN THE NAME OF THE KING THAT THE KING DIDNT KNOW. YES HE WAS THE KING OF ENGLAND BUT HE COULD NOT BE AT 100 PLACES AT ONCE. THAT WHY HENRY HAD A COUNCIL AND PRESIDENTS HAVE A CABINATE Do you find this valuable?    
Hever
Hever
15. RE: Wolsey-sympathy?
Mar 13 2009, 3:37 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 13 2009, 3:37 PM EDT
"John Foxe who was born c. 1517 & wrote the Book of Martyrs said of Henry :

"While good counsel was about him, and could be heard, the king did much good. So again, when sinister and wicked counsel, under subtle and crafty pretences, had gotten once the foot in, thrusting truth and verity out of the prince's ears,how much religion and all good things went prosperously forward before,so much, on the contrary side, all revolted backward again."

So he is saying that Henry was influenced by the people around him and saying he was not totally to blame for the horrors perpetrated in his name. These were times when religion, politics & other dynasty issues were all merged into one government. In our modern times all these issues are kept separate whereas in Henry's court it was a boiling pot of many influences. I am not excusing Henry but just like Mary 1 - there are more factors involved than just personality."
Good post, Henry was not blameless, I would never think that, it's just excuses are always made for Mary, Elizabeth, and so on, but never for him. There were far worse monarchs in history than him and also there were alot worse people around at that time. For example the Duke of Norfolk, he was a horrible man.
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Hever
Hever
16. RE: Wolsey-sympathy?
Mar 13 2009, 3:44 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 13 2009, 3:44 PM EDT
"I GUESS I HAVE TO EXPLAIN MYSELF YOU CANT BLAME HENRY FOR EVERYTHING I DONT MEAN DONT BLAME HENRY FOR ANYTHING. HENRY DID ALOT OF THINGS THAT I DONT AGREE WITH BUT HIS COUNCIL DID THINGS BEHIND HIS BACK JUST LIKE OUR POLITICIANS . WOLSEY AND CROMWELL DID THINGS IN THE NAME OF THE KING THAT THE KING DIDNT KNOW. YES HE WAS THE KING OF ENGLAND BUT HE COULD NOT BE AT 100 PLACES AT ONCE. THAT WHY HENRY HAD A COUNCIL AND PRESIDENTS HAVE A CABINATE "
That's what I'm trying to say, just a bit of fair play.
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Honey-Beezz
Honey-Beezz
17. RE: Wolsey-sympathy?
Mar 13 2009, 5:35 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 13 2009, 5:35 PM EDT
"Good post, Henry was not blameless, I would never think that, it's just excuses are always made for Mary, Elizabeth, and so on, but never for him. There were far worse monarchs in history than him and also there were alot worse people around at that time. For example the Duke of Norfolk, he was a horrible man."
Well,I still think Henry was a stinker,but certainly there have been much worse kings and queens(lets not forget them). I guess what I was trying to say,yes,Wolsey was aiming for the pope's chair,but Henry could have been more lenient to an old servant. Cromwell deserved what he got,Norfolk just lucked out,and Thomas Boleyn-shame on a man who would put two daughters in harms way.
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aquasplash
aquasplash
18. RE: Wolsey-sympathy?
Mar 14 2009, 8:30 AM EDT | Post edited: Mar 14 2009, 8:30 AM EDT
Firstly i have say Sam Neil's portrayal of Wolsey was outstanding. Yes he was corrupt and i think Henry knew this and as it benefited them both, was happy to let him run council. I think Wolsey was good for watching the Kings back.
Until the Boleyn's came along and the other backstabbers who wanted Wolsey's downfall, i think the King trusted him almost like an uncle of sorts.
So yes, i have sympathy for Wolsey. Although not a complete innocent, he was one of the few better servants to the king.
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karenofbethany
karenofbethany
19. RE: Wolsey-sympathy?
Mar 14 2009, 9:15 AM EDT | Post edited: Mar 14 2009, 9:28 AM EDT
"I was just wondering did anyone else feel sympathy for Wolsey when Henry turned on him? As a priest,he did have a hidden wife,and perhaps his agendas were not always for Henry,but for himself. Still,to cast out a man who had worked most of his life for the betterment of his King,Wolsey really got the shaft!! Do you think Henry had just waited for the right opportunity to come alone to take over Wolsey's holdings,using Anne as the excuse."
Well don't get me going on priests and the church, better yet, go ahead. The sincere ones usually become priests because their hearts are inclined toward God, they want to serve him. But they are human. I think the answer is to pray for all clergy, but that's me. It always amazes me that people put totally unreasonable expectations on "church people" and when they fall, it's always a stain on the whole church. Wolsey ("just the son of a butcher") was pretty brilliant - gifted - given his background. I think he can be summed up in his famous quote that if he had served God as he had his king, he would not have been in that situation. Wolsey's demise was a result of Henry's lust and Cromwell's ambition. I think Cardinal Wolsey was starting to reform himself toward the end. I don't think he thought the divorce was appropriate for the realm. Like so many other priests and religious people, he went down that slippery slope. I am sure God forgave him, that his repentance was sincere and heartfelt, which is all that God asks.
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