Discussion: More and Cromwell - Protagonists or Victims of Fate?

"I've often wondered of the relationship between these men. They are often portrayed as protagonists, and to some degree they were. In some cases, as in Bolt's play and Zimmerman's film of A Man for All Seasons, Cromwell is very much the villian to More's saint. But the truth is more complex, and we see a sense of that in The Tudors, where it is not Cromwell who is "out to get" More, but rather an indifferent observer who disagrees with his views on the church.

Were they in fact simply thrown together in time by fate to oppose each other, or was there a visceral dislike? Thoughts?"

"Well spoken, scooter&buster. I agree completely. Watching More's trial, I felt that Cranmer rather than Cromwell hated More. Cromwell seemed tired of it all, as if thinking "Come on, just take the stupid oath and let's get finished with it." "

"I've often wondered of the relationship between these men. They are often portrayed as protagonists, and to some degree they were. In some cases, as in Bolt's play and Zimmerman's film of A Man for All Seasons, Cromwell is very much the villian to More's saint. But the truth is more complex, and we see a sense of that in The Tudors, where it is not Cromwell who is "out to get" More, but rather an indifferent observer who disagrees with his views on the church.

Were they in fact simply thrown together in time by fate to oppose each other, or was there a visceral dislike? Thoughts?"

"I was a little disappointed with the Tudors' depiction of Thomas More. In the Tudors, More is actually depicted as making the statement to Richard Rich that the king is not the legitimate head of the Church of England. This actually comes from Richard Rich's testimony at More's trial, and most historians believe it was perjured testimony. Richard Southwell and Mr. Palmer, other witnesses at the trial, both stated they never heard More make that statement to Richard Rich. But because Henry VIII wanted More executed, the jury verdict was pretty much guaranteed.

More was the finest legal mind in Europe at the time, he had carefully guarded his silence on the king's claim, and he certainly wasn't stupid enough to tell his views to Richard Rich. The Tudors' depiction of this scene really spoiled it for me.

The Tudors also suggests that More as Chancellor was involved in the trial and execution of certain heretics, which is questionable given the limited role of the Chancellor in ecclesiastical matters.

Both Anglicans and Catholics venerate him as a saint."

"Abraham was the father of the three main religions, or, at least, two of them--Judaism and Islam, with Christianity springing from the Jewish faith. The very story of Ishmael and his mother being exiled to the desert and lsaac being Abraham's long awaited for and chosen son is the beginning of the eternal fight between Israel and the Arabic nations...just as the Jew's rejection of Christ was the excuse to persecute Jews through the centuries. It seems the powers that be over look the parts of the Bible that say to love one another and to treat each other as we would like to be treated. No wonder so many choose not to believe.

I'm a believer and a Protestant. I've always wondered what the big riff was between Catholics and Protestants. We all believe in the same God and in Christ. We just worship differently. Of course, things were very different in 1530 or so....a time when the Catholic church ruled the western world. The 'new beliefs" threatened the power of the establishment."