Discussion: Howard vs Seymour Faction - Which faction was the most powerful?

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TudorTeacher	Howard vs Seymour Faction - Which faction was the most powerful? Dec 1 2008, 6:06 AM EST \| Post edited: Dec 1 2008, 6:06 AM EST Which faction was the most influential in Tudor politics in the 1540s? Which faction influenced religious change 1540-47? Who had the biggest impact? Show us your best evidence - let battle commence! Post reply 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you? Keyword tags: faction Henry VIII Howard Reformation religious change Seymour
See-More-Jonno!!!	1. RE: Howard vs Seymour Faction - Which faction was the most powerful? Dec 1 2008, 6:11 AM EST \| Post edited: Dec 1 2008, 6:11 AM EST Seymore. 2 reasons. Best name and very nearly a simpsons character. Post reply 0 out of 10 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
Anne_Howard	2. RE: Howard vs Seymour Faction - Which faction was the most powerful? Dec 1 2008, 6:17 AM EST \| Post edited: Dec 1 2008, 6:17 AM EST it is not the best name eva russel william is. the howards were at least interesting unlike the stupid borin Seymours Lol xxxxxxx Post reply 0 out of 7 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
TudorTeacher	3. RE: Howard vs Seymour Faction - Which faction was the most powerful? Dec 1 2008, 6:30 AM EST \| Post edited: Dec 1 2008, 6:30 AM EST I think we are missing the point if we are resorting to trading insults. For example, there is strong evidence to suggest that Catherine Parr (linked to the Seymour faction) was an active supporter of Protestantism and therefore could have influenced policy. She wrote 'The Lamentations of a Sinner' which had to wait until after Henry's death before it could be published - so obviously very pro the new religion! Come on, where is your evidence?! Post reply 4 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
beardedlady	4. RE: Howard vs Seymour Faction - Which faction was the most powerful? Dec 1 2008, 8:44 AM EST \| Post edited: Dec 1 2008, 8:44 AM EST TudorTeacher, - what a great question! I am by no means an expert in this area, but since you have capped off the time period before Edward Seymour became Protector, I am going to go with the Howards for political influence. (I will let someone else tackle religion) I am going to side with the Earl of Surrey’s (Henry Howard) assessment of the Seymours, “Those saucy fellows that had crept into Court under their sister’s petticoats.” His petulant comment punctuates the rivalry between the two families perfectly – New wealth vs. Old wealth. The Howards were descended from the bloodline of Edward III. Surrey had an even better claim to the throne than the Tudors. If he had not flaunted his power in front of the king’s nose and been such a hothead then he might have saved his neck and put his family on the throne. Norfolk (Thomas Howard) scares me. Now there’s a man that you don’t wan to meet in a dark ally. He displayed some Machiavellian ruthlessness when it came to controlling the people. For example, he had some creative ways of killing people…stringing their bodies up on trees in such. In the time period you have given, Henry couldn’t seem to manage without Norfolk. And the man even survives the Tower…Henry VIII croaked on the very day he was sentenced to die. What a life. But the Seymours have more scandals! (my area of expertise). Sir John Seymour had an affair with his own daughter-in-law and had two children by her. Yucky. When Edward found out he sent his wife away to a convent and refused to recognize the children. I wonder if the The Tudors is going to touch on that scandal. It seems ripe for miniseries drama. Anyway, the Seymours' influence at court is fascinating too because nothing seemed to keep them down. I would love to hear what other people think about the two families? Post reply 4 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
Boudica	5. RE: Howard vs Seymour Faction - Which faction was the most powerful? Dec 1 2008, 12:17 PM EST "Which faction was the most influential in Tudor politics in the 1540s? Which faction influenced religious change 1540-47? Who had the biggest impact? Show us your best evidence - let battle commence!" It's interesting you've picked the time frame 1540-47, since that was probably the most turbulent time frame for both factions. Both had significant impacts, but since the Howards were clearly on the ebb by the death of Henry VIII I would have to go with the Seymours. Not only was the hier to the throne a Seymour, the lord protector was his uncle and even before he came to that position Edward Seymour held considerable influence due to his military service. In terms of religion definately the Seymours had the most lasting impact, although that happened after Henry VIII died and Edward VI was king - all the heresy laws were abolished and Protestantism was practiced openly and the Catholic mass was banned, that was all the work of the Seymours. As far as the Howards are concerned, there was a second Howard relation who became queen consort during that time, but we all know how that turned out. Catherine Parr who came afterwards was more pro-Seymour, the Howards didn't advance much during that time. There was also the falling out and imprisonment of Thomas Howard and his son Henry who was executed for treason. Thomas Howard remained a prisoner in the Tower for the reign of Edward VI, so really it wasn't a good decade to be a Howard. Post reply 4 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
offwithherhead	6. RE: Howard vs Seymour Faction - Which faction was the most powerful? Dec 1 2008, 12:42 PM EST "TudorTeacher, - what a great question! I am by no means an expert in this area, but since you have capped off the time period before Edward Seymour became Protector, I am going to go with the Howards for political influence. (I will let someone else tackle religion) I am going to side with the Earl of Surrey’s (Henry Howard) assessment of the Seymours, “Those saucy fellows that had crept into Court under their sister’s petticoats.” His petulant comment punctuates the rivalry between the two families perfectly – New wealth vs. Old wealth. The Howards were descended from the bloodline of Edward III. Surrey had an even better claim to the throne than the Tudors. If he had not flaunted his power in front of the king’s nose and been such a hothead then he might have saved his neck and put his family on the throne. Norfolk (Thomas Howard) scares me. Now there’s a man that you don’t wan to meet in a dark ally. He displayed some Machiavellian ruthlessness when it came to controlling the people. For example, he had some creative ways of killing people…stringing their bodies up on trees in such. In the time period you have given, Henry couldn’t seem to manage without Norfolk. And the man even survives the Tower…Henry VIII croaked on the very day he was sentenced to die. What a life. But the Seymours have more scandals! (my area of expertise). Sir John Seymour had an affair with his own daughter-in-law and had two children by her. Yucky. When Edward found out he sent his wife away to a convent and refused to recognize the children. I wonder if the The Tudors is going to touch on that scandal. It seems ripe for miniseries drama. Anyway, the Seymours' influence at court is fascinating too because nothing seemed to keep them down. I would love to hear what other people think about the two families? " Good post beardedlady! In my opinion, I would have to say that for that time frame (1540's), the Seymours had the most power....certainly politically anyway. Thomas Howard, who had previously much power, was imprisoned ( along with many of his family) after the execution of Katherine Howard in 1542. I believe this was the final straw that broke the camels back as far as the power of the Howard faction. Once the Seymours were in a position to flex their political muscles, they couldn't capitalize on it because of their in fighting and competition amongst themselves. Prior to the 1540's the Howards had power and I believe it was largely because they had a united front (however wrong). As for religion, I wouldn't know which side to favor fot their influence. I believe that with political power lost the Howards were hardly in a position to influence anything rather than something as important as religion. And as for the Seymours, I think that again they (especially Jane's brothers) were too involved in personal competition to effect any great influence on religion. I believe they went with the flow.....Henry's lead. Although Henry had severed ties with the Vatican, the Church f England was not "fully" Protestant and I can only describe it as in limbo. I believe that the real influence on religion from the Seymours came after Henry's death when Edward Seymour became Lord Protector of England for Edward VI and a fully realized Anglican Church and Protestant religion was formed. So for these reasons, I believe that religious influence in the 1540's is a toss-up. Just my opinions. :) Would love to hear others. By the way, good question TudorTeacher! Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
TheBoleynGirl	7. RE: Howard vs Seymour Faction - Which faction was the most powerful? Dec 1 2008, 12:48 PM EST I better be a good student and join in! :) I think what most goes in favour for the Seymours is that they continued to sustain their influence for a much longer time period than the Howards and even after 1547. They had a great deal of involvement in acession of the throne with Edward and were able to heavily influence him. There are also examples of changes they caused such as Edward Seymour, with Cranmer brought about the adoption of the first 'Book of Common Prayer' which offered a compromise between Roman Catholic and Protestant learning. The fact that they had important figures such as Cranmer on there side would also be important to the faction. Post reply 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
beardedlady	8. RE: Howard vs Seymour Faction - Which faction was the most powerful? Dec 1 2008, 1:39 PM EST \| Post edited: Dec 1 2008, 1:39 PM EST Oh I agree. The Seymours had the survival instincts of plague rats. Actually both families seem to have an amazing staying power. Norfolk still kept his title (and I think his lands?) after Catherine Howard’s execution. I never could figure out how he pulled that one off? I know he wrote a groveling letter to Henry but sheeesh…that must have been one heck of a letter. Henry VIII still trusted him enough to lead his troops into battle after Katherine’s downfall. And Norfolk still had political clout beyond England. He supposedly was having secret meetings with the French. It’s interesting how Henry VIII seemed to play the rival families off each other. He never let one faction get too strong….which is why I think the Howards had to go. They had become too strong and they were on the wrong side of the religious divide. Surrey was bragging how he was going to be named Protector of Edward and then become king after Henry croaked. So I agree that the 1540s were not a good decade for the Howards but I would put 1546 (Surrey’s execution) as the year of their downfall. Post reply 2 out of 3 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
sexy_seymour	9. RE: Howard vs Seymour Faction - Which faction was the most powerful? Dec 1 2008, 1:45 PM EST \| Post edited: Dec 1 2008, 1:45 PM EST I'll have to support the Seymours, not only did they maneuver 2 wives onto the thrown with political and also social prowess, but their protestant influence continued to the end of HEnry VIII's reign and over into Edwards too. They also held great control over religious change, Catherine Parr (greatly connected to the seymour family) was commited to new ideas in protestantism, she even wrote the 'lamentations of a sinner' - she talks of confession and repentance, all the while stressing the importance of Christian Scripture, an emphasis which marks her work as a Reformation text. Parr was also clearly linked with Reformist thinkers, she made sure that Prince Edward and Princess Elizabeth were educated by such thinkers. She also protected many learned places such as universities. One of her major acheivements was to legitimise Mary and Elizath and restore them to the royal succession. But she did scrape a heresy charge which she only survived by bowing to Henry's authority. She was most definately a religious and political influence Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
sexy_seymour	10. RE: Howard vs Seymour Faction - Which faction was the most powerful? Dec 1 2008, 1:52 PM EST \| Post edited: Dec 1 2008, 1:52 PM EST " Actually both families seem to have an amazing staying power. Norfolk still kept his title (and I think his lands?) after Catherine Howard’s execution. I never could figure out how he pulled that one off? I know he wrote a groveling letter to Henry but sheeesh…that must have been one heck of a letter. " Beardedlady - yeah, that must have been one but kissin letter. i didn't realize he survived that one, plenty of people were killed for more minor connections to treachery than that. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
beardedlady	11. RE: Howard vs Seymour Faction - Which faction was the most powerful? Dec 1 2008, 3:27 PM EST \| Post edited: Dec 1 2008, 3:27 PM EST Still no takers on the Howards? (sigh) I guess I am going to have to stand alone on this one. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
mary_bess_edward	12. RE: Howard vs Seymour Faction - Which faction was the most powerful? Dec 2 2008, 8:13 AM EST \| Post edited: Dec 2 2008, 8:13 AM EST "The Howards were descended from the bloodline of Edward III." Well i don't think the Seymour family had that good lineage, but John's wife, Margery Wentworth, the legendary beauty, was also descended through the bloodline of Edward III, through Lionel Duke of Clarence, Edward's second living son, and also of Henry Hotspur. So Jane, Edward and Thomas etc had good lineage. In fact, i believe Henry and Jane were quite closely related, but i'm not certain to what extent, something like third cousins or perhaps further apart then that. Post reply 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
Boudica	13. RE: Howard vs Seymour Faction - Which faction was the most powerful? Dec 2 2008, 4:36 PM EST \| Post edited: Dec 2 2008, 4:36 PM EST " In fact, i believe Henry and Jane were quite closely related, but i'm not certain to what extent, something like third cousins or perhaps further apart then that." They were fifth cousins three times removed, which is closely enough related they got a special dispensation in order to marry. Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
beardedlady	14. RE: Howard vs Seymour Faction - Which faction was the most powerful? Dec 2 2008, 7:43 PM EST \| Post edited: Dec 2 2008, 7:43 PM EST "They were fifth cousins three times removed, which is closely enough related they got a special dispensation in order to marry." My memory is going on me lately, but I believe the dispensation was necessary not because Henry was 5th cousins with Jane, but because his marriage with Anne put him in a 3rd degree of affinity to Jane. (Jane Seymour was the second cousin of Anne B) This question came up before in another discussion board. If you are interested, I will see if I can find it. Post reply 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
Boudica	15. RE: Howard vs Seymour Faction - Which faction was the most powerful? Dec 4 2008, 1:56 PM EST \| Post edited: Dec 4 2008, 1:56 PM EST "My memory is going on me lately, but I believe the dispensation was necessary not because Henry was 5th cousins with Jane, but because his marriage with Anne put him in a 3rd degree of affinity to Jane. (Jane Seymour was the second cousin of Anne B) This question came up before in another discussion board. If you are interested, I will see if I can find it." Ahhh...yep you're right! I got it mixed up. There's a discussion regarding this that's explained nicely on Tudorhistory.org Q&A blog: "In Henry's case, the impediment of affinity in the third degree meant that he could not marry any woman who was related in the third degree to either Katherine of Aragon or Anne Boleyn or any of his mistresses. This could easily extend to fourth and fifth cousins, if the "root" or "common stock" (in canon law terms) was itself close enough. A single common great-grandparent between Jane and any of Henry's wives or mistresses would put Jane within the third degree of affinity (though not necessarily the third degree of consanguinity), for example." http://tudorhistory.org/queryblog/2007/11/question-from-monica-dispensation-for.html But if that's the case, then how could Henry have gotten away with marrying Katherine Howard? Each of Henry's wives had SOME degree of affinity with each other (they're all descended from King Edward I and further relations in between), and definately Katherine Howard would have fallen into that because she and Anne Boleyn were first cousins. Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Boudica	16. RE: Howard vs Seymour Faction - Which faction was the most powerful? Dec 4 2008, 2:01 PM EST \| Post edited: Dec 4 2008, 2:01 PM EST I was perusing Amazon.com today and noticed a good book that's coming out on the Howards. "House of Treason" by Robert Hutchinson is coming out next year. http://www.amazon.com/House-Treason-Rise-Tudor-Dynasty/dp/0297845640/ref=cm_lmf_tit_10 Post reply Do you find this valuable?
beardedlady	17. RE: Howard vs Seymour Faction - Which faction was the most powerful? Dec 4 2008, 3:45 PM EST \| Post edited: Dec 4 2008, 3:45 PM EST Ya, that’s a great question. I don’t believe Henry had to get a dispensation to marry Katherine Howard? (but I could be wrong?) He did have to get one to marry Catherine of Aragon, Anne Boleyn, and Jane Seymour. To be honest, canonical law makes my head hurt. My only guess is that because Henry’s marriage to Anne was annulled and Jane was dead it eliminated the need for a dispensation. I know that during the period that he was married to his first three wives canon law stated that marriage was not needed to determine a degree of affinity. Having a romp out of wedlock was good enough according to the Catholic church. But maybe by this point the laws had changed? That is a really lame guess. That’s all I got. Thanks for the book recomendation. The Howards definitely have enough hi-jinks to make an interesting read. Say, is there a place on these boards to post reviews of books? I just reviewed a book that I think people we will like: http://blog.raucousroyals.com/2008/12/raucous-book-of-month-doomed-queens.html Post reply 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you find this valuable? Do you?
Boudica	18. RE: Howard vs Seymour Faction - Which faction was the most powerful? Dec 4 2008, 4:23 PM EST \| Post edited: Dec 4 2008, 4:23 PM EST "Ya, that’s a great question. I don’t believe Henry had to get a dispensation to marry Katherine Howard? (but I could be wrong?) He did have to get one to marry Catherine of Aragon, Anne Boleyn, and Jane Seymour. To be honest, canonical law makes my head hurt. My only guess is that because Henry’s marriage to Anne was annulled and Jane was dead it eliminated the need for a dispensation. I know that during the period that he was married to his first three wives canon law stated that marriage was not needed to determine a degree of affinity. Having a romp out of wedlock was good enough according to the Catholic church. But maybe by this point the laws had changed? That is a really lame guess. That’s all I got. Thanks for the book recomendation. The Howards definitely have enough hi-jinks to make an interesting read. Say, is there a place on these boards to post reviews of books? I just reviewed a book that I think people we will like: http://blog.raucousroyals.com/2008/12/raucous-book-of-month-doomed-queens.html " Canonical law makes my head hurt too. LOL! I mean I get the gist of it but when it's demonstrated it can be quite confusing indeed. As a matter of fact we do have a book review section! Please feel free to add your reviews or additional books you'd like to comment on. There's one page for fiction and the other for nonfiction: http://tudorswiki.sho.com/page/Tudor+Bookshelf Post reply Do you find this valuable?
Boudica	19. RE: Howard vs Seymour Faction - Which faction was the most powerful? Dec 5 2008, 1:40 PM EST \| Post edited: Dec 5 2008, 1:40 PM EST "My only guess is that because Henry’s marriage to Anne was annulled and Jane was dead it eliminated the need for a dispensation. I know that during the period that he was married to his first three wives canon law stated that marriage was not needed to determine a degree of affinity. Having a romp out of wedlock was good enough according to the Catholic church. But maybe by this point the laws had changed? That is a really lame guess. That’s all I got." Your "lame" guess is actually correct! :) I looked through my copy of Antonia Fraser's "Six Wives of Henry VIII" and she wrote that by the time Henry was looking to marry Katherine (1541), the reformed Church of England had done away with the practice of dispensations because they were regarded a unnecessary and merely a source of revenue for the Catholic Church (like the sale of indulgences). So that sounds like the CoE once again made it nice and convenient for Henry to marry who he wanted. Post reply Do you find this valuable?

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