Discussion: The Damnation of Anne Boleyn

"I know the wiki has been slow lately. I think we covered this on an earlier thread. Henry, not Jane, was simply following a precedent he set with Anne, but with a more final way of ridding himself of the ex-wife. Those who are partisans of Katharine of Aragon dislike Anne for her mistreatment of Mary and even of Katharine, and her arrogance; she was power-mad. Perhaps she herself did not mistreat Katharine and Mary (although she did mistreat Mary on her own), but she had the King's ear and aided, abetted and goaded Henry in his mistreatment of them. Anne was not loved by the people who saw her as the usurper of the righful Queen's place.
Jane was not known for being deliberately unkind, as far as I know, even to Anne's adherents or her daughter Elizabeth. Although she could not really help Elizabeth because of Henry's antipathy to his own daughter as the offspring of his late unlamented Queen, she did nothing to harm her. Also, She also urged him even though it made him angry, to a rapprochement with Mary. Who knows what she might have done in time, if she had not died, for Elizabeth? Anne was dead (by Henry's own doing; Jane had nothing to do with it except in the sense that Henry was looking to marry again and had discovered that he had the power to get rid of an inconvenient ex-wife this way) when Henry married Jane, she was not usurping Anne's place. She was seen as rightful Queen, since Katharine of Aragon, whom many saw as the rightful Queen was also dead. Unlike Anne who was married to Henry in a secret ceremony before his marriage to Katharine had been officially declared invalid
by his own lackeys, Jane was by any standard eligible to marry a King who was truly single. In effect, Henry was a bigamist when he married Anne, and if anyone had had the grit to oppose him, the validity of his marriage to Anne could have been cast in doubt.
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"I don't know whether anyone will be interested to say anything about this but I just wondered how so many people can call Anne Boleyn a terrible person for what she did to KOA and Mary and hardly anyone balmes Jane Seymour at all for what she did to Anne.

Jane always holds this sweet, innocent and pure image when, in my opinion, what she and her fmaily did to Anne was much worse than what Anne did to KOA.

This is just my opinion and I would be very interested to hear others!!!"

"I think that by the time Jane caught Henry's eye Anne had already lost him. I always used to think Jane was sly in the way that she basically did what Anne did and kept Henry at arms length but I have kinda changed my opinion of her. If Henry wanted her then she couldn't have refused him for ever. Don't get me wrong im not anti Anne Boleyn but I do think that she manipulated Henry more so than Jane did. Not just in terms of taking him away from Katherine, but in terms of religion, politics etc. And the fact she was quite happy for Henry to treat KOA and Mary the way he did. She was quite vocal in other matters i'm sure she could have persuaded him to treat them a bit better had she chosen to. "

"What irritates me more than anything is how folk on here, and in general, pit the wives against each other. Sure, they all have their good and bad points but none of them deserved the treatment they got. Henry is the villain of the tale, not ANY of the wives.
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"KOA had already lost Henry before he was involved with Anne, all the text books say that Henry d already noticed the bible section about marrying your brother's wife, and started to question his marriage, before he met Anne. If he had not divorved KOA for Anne, he would have done so to marry someone else.
Henry treatment of KOA and Mary was down to Henry, maybe influenced by Anne, but his actions were not her fault - why do we always blame the women?!
And as far as Jane could not refuse Henry forever - I agree, however neither could Anne and surely thats a point! She did however (Anne) refuse him for many years. Jane did not have to wait very long to become Henry's wife, as Anne did.
And however badly KOA and Mary were treated, lets not forget they did not lose their heads! I am not saying how they were treated was fair (appalling obviously) and imho KOA was actually the only true queen - I have a great deal of respect and admiration for her, but Anne is not the monster, whore, bitch that many seem to perceive her as. She was in love with Henry Percy and would have married him had it not been for Wolsey stopping it happening.
Anne was not a sait, by any means and her 'faults' led to her downfall, but neither was Jane a saint.
What irritates me more than anything is how folk on here, and in general, pit the wives against each other. Sure, they all have their good and bad points but none of them deserved the treatment they got. Henry is the villain of the tale, not ANY of the wives.
"

"Hi Neveleo,
Great statement, I had made a similar one on another thread. But don't forget that Henry VII also used the Leviticus argument before Henry married KOA as it contravened w/cannon law, and forced Henry to swear before a select company of nobles that he doubted the legitimacy of the marriage. Bishops Fischer and ummm, uhh, oh heck! Can't remember his name, but they both agreed that it was considered a sin for Henry to marry Arthur's wife. One of the many reasons that the Spanish marriage was put off for as long as possible. Henry was supposed to marry Katherine when he was 15, but Henry VII brought up Leviticus to stall the marriage. The politics in Spain were rife, and Jauna and Phillip were trying to take Aragon from Ferdinand. Henry VII was a wiley character, and saw the disadvantages of marrying into Spain while a civil war was about to take place. So he played for time to see the outcome. Henry VIII had in turn questioned the marriage after 8 years with no living heir. And again after Mary was born when Fitzroy came and Henry knew he could father sons. So in his mind, he was being punished for a sin by marrying KOA. By now, both bishops mentioned earlier believed Henry's marriage to be a true marriage, and when Henry wanted annulment, they upheld the sanctity of marriage. KOA was the only woman to truly and completely love Henry. The rest were afraid of him. Anne's problem w/Henry is that she did not become a docile person after her marriage, and continued to nag at Henry as she did prior to their marriage. My opinion: All of the women were his wives and queens of England, tho only 2 were crowned. And all suffered for it.

Hello Holly, Hever, Funrod and Lettice! Nice to see you all again! I believe Henry weighed well over 400 lbs when he died, possibly closer to 500! Hope you all had a nice summer!

Peace,
ETR"

"I know the wiki has been slow lately. I think we covered this on an earlier thread. Henry, not Jane, was simply following a precedent he set with Anne, but with a more final way of ridding himself of the ex-wife. Those who are partisans of Katharine of Aragon dislike Anne for her mistreatment of Mary and even of Katharine, and her arrogance; she was power-mad. Perhaps she herself did not mistreat Katharine and Mary (although she did mistreat Mary on her own), but she had the King's ear and aided, abetted and goaded Henry in his mistreatment of them. Anne was not loved by the people who saw her as the usurper of the righful Queen's place.
Jane was not known for being deliberately unkind, as far as I know, even to Anne's adherents or her daughter Elizabeth. Although she could not really help Elizabeth because of Henry's antipathy to his own daughter as the offspring of his late unlamented Queen, she did nothing to harm her. Also, She also urged him even though it made him angry, to a rapprochement with Mary. Who knows what she might have done in time, if she had not died, for Elizabeth? Anne was dead (by Henry's own doing; Jane had nothing to do with it except in the sense that Henry was looking to marry again and had discovered that he had the power to get rid of an inconvenient ex-wife this way) when Henry married Jane, she was not usurping Anne's place. She was seen as rightful Queen, since Katharine of Aragon, whom many saw as the rightful Queen was also dead. Unlike Anne who was married to Henry in a secret ceremony before his marriage to Katharine had been officially declared invalid
by his own lackeys, Jane was by any standard eligible to marry a King who was truly single. In effect, Henry was a bigamist when he married Anne, and if anyone had had the grit to oppose him, the validity of his marriage to Anne could have been cast in doubt.
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"This post is very negatively judgemental of Anne Boleyn and incorrect. Jane was very much involved in usurping Anne. It is well known and documented by several historians who quote Ambassador Chapuys as saying that he advised her to drop heavy hints about Anne's heretical leanings in Henry's ear, and to say that the people of England would never accept her as their true Queen. She must say these things in the presence of her supporters, who would all then swear on their allegiance to the King, that she spoke the truth. Jane certainly acted upon this advice, and it had the desired effect upon the King, who was now receptive to criticism of his wife. This combined with the backing of Thomas Cromwell who actually gave up his adjacent rooms to Henry so that the Seymours would have direct access to the King, seperated the King from his wife Anne who was in pregnant confinement at the time.

Jane was catholic and wanted the faction that had Princess Mary as their figurehead to be back in power at court so of course she wanted Henry to reconcile with his catholic daughter. As for the english people, not all were happy to see Jane become betrothed to the King while Anne's body was still warm. There was a ballad of derision in the land which Henry wrote about in a letter to Jane for fear she would hear it and be upset, promising to bring the culprit to task. The facts remain that Anne waited 7 years for an annulment of Henry's marriage even though he had officially seperated from her years before whereas Jane was an accomplice to the murder of his wife (and she was his legal wife) and became his new wife in the matter of a couple of months.

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