Sign in or 

|
Lady_anne2 |
The Juxaposition of Anne and Jane
Jun 2 2008, 1:45 AM EDT
I really did not like the way the interfacing of Anne dressing for her execution while Jane laughed and played with jewelry while wating for Henry to arrive.I wanted to smack her hard! When she was jumping up and down getting her dress on and here was Anne, os solemn and discarded. I thought it made a good visual, but it was also very sad. "Innocent" Jane knew what was happening at that very moment and didn't lose a wink of sleep over it. 25 out of 36 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
MsSquirrly |
1. RE: The Juxaposition of Anne and Jane
Jun 2 2008, 1:47 AM EDT
"I really did not like the way the interfacing of Anne dressing for her execution while Jane laughed and played with jewelry while wating for Henry to arrive.yes but very much in keeping with what the historian Agnes Strickland wrote. Check it out on the historical profile of Jane Seymour. 9 out of 12 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
LNor19 |
2. RE: The Juxaposition of Anne and Jane
Jun 2 2008, 2:17 AM EDT
"I really did not like the way the interfacing of Anne dressing for her execution while Jane laughed and played with jewelry while wating for Henry to arrive.It actually reminded me of how when Katherine was told to leave court, Anne was outside her window with Henry kissing and laughing with him. Jane was Anne, happy about Henry and Anne was Katherine, the discarded wife. 16 out of 19 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
antoinette2 |
3. RE: The Juxaposition of Anne and Jane
Jun 2 2008, 3:45 AM EDT
"I really did not like the way the interfacing of Anne dressing for her execution while Jane laughed and played with jewelry while wating for Henry to arrive.It certainly was unsettling, but as you said, it did help define the image of one wife being discarded while the new love moved into Henry's life. You have to wonder what Jane really thought at this time. I wonder how bright she really was. She certainly was obediant and probably not so high maintenance as the smarter Anne or Katherine. Jane always seems to me a kind of simple soul who does what she is told and lives her life without really thinking about things. I wouldn't really like to be the actress to follow on the heels of Natlier Dormer's,Anne. Jane's going to have a hard time charming us after Anne's intensity and passion. 8 out of 11 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
Holly2 |
4. RE: The Juxaposition of Anne and Jane
Jun 2 2008, 7:46 AM EDT
"It actually reminded me of how when Katherine was told to leave court, Anne was outside her window with Henry kissing and laughing with him. Jane was Anne, happy about Henry and Anne was Katherine, the discarded wife."Except for the fact that Katherine wasn't about to be murdered. 13 out of 24 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
LNor19 |
5. RE: The Juxaposition of Anne and Jane
Jun 2 2008, 11:36 AM EDT
"Except for the fact that Katherine wasn't about to be murdered."No, she was about to be exiled and stripped of her title as Queen. And forced to live out the rest of her days in agony and a rotting castle. Knowing that her daughter was alive but never able to see her. My point was that the roles have been reversed. 10 out of 15 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
MsSquirrly |
6. RE: The Juxaposition of Anne and Jane
Jun 2 2008, 11:39 AM EDT
"No, she was about to be exiled and stripped of her title as Queen. And forced to live out the rest of her days in agony and a rotting castle. Knowing that her daughter was alive but never able to see her.The other difference is that Anne had no option...Katherine had the option to take the title of Dowager Princess and live in comfort the rest of her life like Anne of Cleves did. I dont fault her on not taking it because it meant her child would be bastardized. But Anne and her faction were toppled and she was to have her head severed from her body and not knowing what would befall her child.who was also bastardized. 10 out of 17 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
Imponthenet |
7. RE: The Juxaposition of Anne and Jane
Jun 3 2008, 5:21 PM EDT
I've noticed that the same juxtaposition between Anne and Jane was captured in the 1933 film, "The Private Life of Henry VIII". Jane is shown eagerly preparing for marriage while Anne is shown soberly and resolutely preparing for her execution.
6
out of
7 found this valuable.
Do you?
|
|
Holly2 |
8. RE: The Juxaposition of Anne and Jane
Jun 3 2008, 5:25 PM EDT
"I've noticed that the same juxtaposition between Anne and Jane was captured in the 1933 film, "The Private Life of Henry VIII". Jane is shown eagerly preparing for marriage while Anne is shown soberly and resolutely preparing for her execution."I remember that; I think that part of the film was inspired by Agnes Strickland's account of Jane Seymour's conduct. 10 out of 14 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
curlyrain |
9. RE: The Juxaposition of Anne and Jane
Jun 3 2008, 9:11 PM EDT
I guess this was Henry's style ... the future wife goes in the door before the discarded one has even left the building, Anne knew how it would be she had been the happy one before and knew Henry all so well that is why she was worried about keeping his interest on her, she did all for this awful person but also tried so hard to make everything work for her daughter sake... at the end even in dead she won by having Elizabeth become such a great woman and ruler who let no man stand in her way.
6
out of
6 found this valuable.
Do you?
|
|
Imponthenet |
10. RE: The Juxaposition of Anne and Jane
Jun 3 2008, 10:13 PM EDT
Have any of you viewed the page dedicated to Henry VIII on findagrave.com? That little flower with the frown is a clear indicator of those whom history ultimately villifies.As Shakespeare said in "Julius Caesar", "The evil men do lives after them. The good is oft interred with their bones." 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
actchickcee |
11. RE: The Juxaposition of Anne and Jane
Jun 4 2008, 2:59 AM EDT
I think the thing that has always bothered me the most is that for so many, Jane was considered this sweet perfect saintly figure. In reality she is every bit as guilty of seducing a married man, as Anne was. She even stole some of Anne's moves, by not sleeping with the king. She did the EXACT same thing Anne did, she just played on the good girl image. To me that is more sneaky and conniving.I'm not trying to say she is worse than Anne, but I have always been annoyed by the whole perfect, innocent Jane thing. The only reason Henry remembered her that way is because she had a boy. I often wonder what her fate would have been had she not died in childbed. Would Henry have tired of her eventually too? I doubt that if he had, she would have been discarded as his other wives were, after all, she did give him a son and that would have protected her from certain things, though, I'm willing to bet she would have had a few ladies in waiting who go to know the king very well. 4 out of 6 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
MsSquirrly |
12. RE: The Juxaposition of Anne and Jane
Jun 4 2008, 8:24 AM EDT
I appreciate your post but you know, I have a little problem with saying Anne seduced Henry. The fact is that Henry had talked about splitting from his wife back in 1518...he was the one who was on the prowl. Anne was involved in a love match with Henry Percy when the King became enamoured with her. Using Wolsey, the relationship was split up and Henry made sure that no other man would come near Anne because they knew he wanted her.Anne refused the king's attentions in the beginning because she still had feelings for Henry Percy...who had been hurriedly married off to someone else. When Anne's father realised that his daughter was now in the royal spotlight, he urged her to take advantage. Her choice was either to leave court or make the best of it. We know what she chose. I am sure Jane was tutored by her father and brothers too. Both women were used by their families to further the family fortunes. The difference I see in the two women is their personalities. Anne was magnetic, intelligent and talented so people were drawn to her whereas Anne wasn't the brightest and more nondescript. 6 out of 9 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
lettice |
13. RE: The Juxaposition of Anne and Jane
Jun 4 2008, 8:42 AM EDT
"I appreciate your post but you know, I have a little problem with saying Anne seduced Henry. The fact is that Henry had talked about splitting from his wife back in 1518...he was the one who was on the prowl. Anne was involved in a love match with Henry Percy when the King became enamoured with her. Using Wolsey, the relationship was split up and Henry made sure that no other man would come near Anne because they knew he wanted her.Absolutely! The two personalities were polar opposites. It's difficult for an extremely intelligent, well educated woman with a bit of a temper to present as meek and docile, even back then. Jane was a vessel for her family's ambition just as Anne was, but Jane was not outspoken or as intelligent. She did however, have an agenda and a means to a desired end. 5 out of 5 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
actchickcee |
14. RE: The Juxaposition of Anne and Jane
Jun 5 2008, 1:23 AM EDT
I agree, Henry was certainly the hunter, in both instances, sorry, my post did make it seem that I viewed it the other way around. My point was that Jane gets this saintly image and Anne gets portrayed as the seductress. Both carried on a relationship with a married man, which led to the end of the marriage, but for some reason, Jane seems to dodge the bad rapactually really like Anne Boleyn, and to be honest, do not care for Jane, atleast to the point that I know her, being as she lived hundreds of years ago. It's just always really irked me that Anne was the "whore" and Jane was the "saint". Their personalities were very different, that's for sure. To me Anne has always been the more interesting one. Jane, and I don't mean to offend anyone, has always struck me as one of those girls in highschool, the perfect cheerleader, that everyone loves, and everyone thinks is so good and sweet, but had a nasty side that was well hidden under a demure smile. I know that's harsh, it's just always been how she struck me, sorry Jane fans. One other thing, just something I noticed when people are drawing comparisons of the two, but how do we know Jane was not as intelligent as Anne? She was certainly not as well educated, but one can be poorly educated and still very intelligent. I do think she was much more easily kept in line, but that again, does not mean she was less intelligent. Just wanted to point out that intelligence can not always be measured by education. Sorry, I was a preschool teacher for awhile and that always bugs me. I hope no one is offended. It's very easy to mistake things in this type of medium and the last thing I want to do is start a big debate. 7 out of 8 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
BF1964 |
15. RE: The Juxaposition of Anne and Jane
Aug 4 2008, 11:53 AM EDT
"I really did not like the way the interfacing of Anne dressing for her execution while Jane laughed and played with jewelry while wating for Henry to arrive.I hated this scene. First of all from what I've read about and understand about Jane Seymour, she was not a frivolous type of girl. She did away with all the daring French fashions that Anne had brought to court, and insisted on seriousness and piousness from her ladies (of course this might also have been to hopefully keep Henry from sleeping with any of them). I also find it unbelievable to think that a lady of the Tudor era would be flouncing and twisting about like Jane was in this scene. Since this is all make-believe I doubt this actually happened as shown in the series. 5 out of 5 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
Holly2 |
16. RE: The Juxaposition of Anne and Jane
Aug 4 2008, 12:08 PM EDT
"I hated this scene. First of all from what I've read about and understand about Jane Seymour, she was not a frivolous type of girl. She did away with all the daring French fashions that Anne had brought to court, and insisted on seriousness and piousness from her ladies (of course this might also have been to hopefully keep Henry from sleeping with any of them). I also find it unbelievable to think that a lady of the Tudor era would be flouncing and twisting about like Jane was in this scene. Since this is all make-believe I doubt this actually happened as shown in the series. "It is, however, an interesting decision for the writer and director to make. The contrast between Anne's admirable dignity and courage when faced with her impending death, along with the heartbreaking way she's grasping at straws, trying to resign herself to the idea of death but still longing to live, and Jane's dolling herself up is made very clear - I have to admit, one of the first thoughts that struck me when I watched that scene: "Couldn't you wait until Anne's actually in her grave before you start dancing on it, you <expletive>!" Do they want Jane to be a sympathetic character or is it their intention that the audience will dislike her? 5 out of 10 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
LNor19 |
17. RE: The Juxaposition of Anne and Jane
Aug 4 2008, 12:42 PM EDT
"The other difference is that Anne had no option...Katherine had the option to take the title of Dowager Princess and live in comfort the rest of her life like Anne of Cleves did. I dont fault her on not taking it because it meant her child would be bastardized. But Anne and her faction were toppled and she was to have her head severed from her body and not knowing what would befall her child.who was also bastardized."Truthfully, it was no choice for Katherine. It went against her very being, for Katherine, it was just as bad as death. Mary was bastardized anyway and Katherine was not allowed to see her child, often not knowing her condition. This "choice" that everyone says Katherine had, was in reality, no choice at all to Katherine. Both Katherine and Anne met their fate discarded and heart-broken, and the fate of their daughters in the hands of the man who had caused them both so much pain. 6 out of 6 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
Holly2 |
18. RE: The Juxaposition of Anne and Jane
Aug 4 2008, 12:57 PM EDT
"Truthfully, it was no choice for Katherine. It went against her very being, for Katherine, it was just as bad as death. Mary was bastardized anyway and Katherine was not allowed to see her child, often not knowing her condition. This "choice" that everyone says Katherine had, was in reality, no choice at all to Katherine. Both Katherine and Anne met their fate discarded and heart-broken, and the fate of their daughters in the hands of the man who had caused them both so much pain. "Not necessarily, there were two options that would have ensured Mary's legitimacy, if that was Katherine's goal. If Katherine took the option of retiring to a convent, obviously that wouldn't affect Mary's legitimacy, her status as a princess or the fact that she had a right to a place in the succession. As well as that, if Henry and Katherine both agreed that their union was invalid but that they had entered into it in good faith, Mary would be a child of good faith, still considered legitimate, with all accompanying rights. I would say that Henry would be willing to be very generous and that he would have had no problems with Katherine and Mary seeing one another. Since Katherine would have been helping him to get what he wanted, he would be very pleased with her and generous in his treatment. Obviously, it would still be a blow; Katherine would lose her place as Queen and obviously, if Anne and Henry produced a son, his right to inherit ahead of Mary would be accepted, but it was certainly an improvement over getting beheaded on trumped-up charges. 5 out of 10 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
MsSquirrly |
19. RE: The Juxaposition of Anne and Jane
Aug 4 2008, 2:07 PM EDT
"One other thing, just something I noticed when people are drawing comparisons of the two, but how do we know Jane was not as intelligent as Anne? She was certainly not as well educated, but one can be poorly educated and still very intelligent. I do think she was much more easily kept in line, but that again, does not mean she was less intelligent. Just wanted to point out that intelligence can not always be measured by education.You bring up a very good point and of course none of us know for sure about someone's intelligence if we have never met someone. However, historically, there is no mention of Jane's "great wit" and she was at court as long as Anne. She wasn't new to court. She had been lady in waiting to Katherine of Aragon before Anne. All those years, she was not mentioned as being "outstanding" in anyway. Anne on the other hand was known as outstanding from the time she went to the French court as a young girl. Even Anne's nemisis Thomas Cromwell said she was a woman of " intelligence, spirit and courage" The same cannot be said of Jane. So all we have to go on is the words of the few that knew her. Anne was known as being erudite and enjoyed discusssions about religion with her group of courtiers. She was known for her music, her poetry & her style. Jane was known for her needlework &b knowledge of housekeeping. Now it may be a leap to say she was more intelligent but somehow I think not. 6 out of 11 found this valuable. Do you? |