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Location: Episode 2.09
Discussion: I STILL can't figure out what thomas boleyn says
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Lady_anne2 |
20. RE: I STILL can't figure out what thomas boleyn says
May 26 2008, 2:31 PM EDT
"How many human beings are truly evil? Since they're dealing with real people, I'd prefer that they didn't make them out to be so truly evil - Philippa Gregory has provided quite enough of that - and gave everybody something at least vaguely resembling a redeeming quality."Except Thomas Boleyn. I find no redeeming quality in him at all. He was the real power behind Anne and he didn't care that 2 of his children were wrongly accused and executed. Do you find this valuable? |
Mairy |
21. RE: I STILL can't figure out what thomas boleyn says
May 26 2008, 2:50 PM EDT
"Except Thomas Boleyn. I find no redeeming quality in him at all. He was the real power behind Anne and he didn't care that 2 of his children were wrongly accused and executed. "It's strange how some parents, even in these times who do whatever they can to profit from their children. Thomas Boleyn's children were merely steps on the ladder of power for him. I honestly doubt he ever cared for them or for his wife. Do you find this valuable? |
Holly2 |
22. RE: I STILL can't figure out what thomas boleyn says
May 26 2008, 5:26 PM EDT
"Except Thomas Boleyn. I find no redeeming quality in him at all. He was the real power behind Anne and he didn't care that 2 of his children were wrongly accused and executed. "Yes. I've been trying to think of one likeable quality for Thomas Boleyn and I'm coming up empty. Do you find this valuable? |
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Lady_anne2 |
23. RE: I STILL can't figure out what thomas boleyn says
May 26 2008, 7:19 PM EDT
"Yes. I've been trying to think of one likeable quality for Thomas Boleyn and I'm coming up empty. "I tried as well before I named him. He caused all of the problems. He had Mary Boleyn as Henry's Mistress (later being the reason Henry gave for his marriage to Anne being invalid); he had Anne "bewitch" Henry and forced George into a marriage that was clearly the beginning of the end of the reign of the Boleyns. Because George was a jerk to Jane Parker, she got him back by saying he slept with Anne and then the executions started. The man was pure evil. Do you find this valuable? |
actchickcee |
24. RE: I STILL can't figure out what thomas boleyn says
Jun 7 2008, 1:31 AM EDT
Okay, before I say anything else let me say this. I agree that Thomas Boleyn was portrayed as a wicked wicked man in the series, except for one part. In the season finale Anne remembers her childhood and in that scene Thomas was acting like a very loving and doting father. I think maybe something happened that turned him into that cold and calculating character we've all come to know and despise. That part made me sad, I kept thinking that maybe she wasn't just remembering her youth but also a time when her father had been good and kind, maybe missing the man he was or something. I don't know, I just think it makes the character more interesting to think that he was once good. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Holly2 |
25. RE: I STILL can't figure out what thomas boleyn says
Jun 7 2008, 9:02 AM EDT
"Okay, before I say anything else let me say this. I agree that Thomas Boleyn was portrayed as a wicked wicked man in the series, except for one part. In the season finale Anne remembers her childhood and in that scene Thomas was acting like a very loving and doting father. I think maybe something happened that turned him into that cold and calculating character we've all come to know and despise.He certainly seemed to be affectionate towards little Anne, and she loved him. Maybe they were trying to show the corrupting influence of Henry's court, showing us a Before and After of Thomas Boleyn, that there was a time when the man who was willing to use his children as pawns for his own advancement, able to celebrate retaining his earldom when his son had been unjustly executed and his daughter was about to be, and to walk away from Anne with scarcely a backward glance, was a caring father. Do you find this valuable? |
LadyVashti |
26. RE: I STILL can't figure out what thomas boleyn says
Jun 7 2008, 12:14 PM EDT
Yet he was fairly typical of his time, when children of the nobility were pawns to be used for personal advancement. Jane Grey's parents (her mother Frances Brandon was the Duke of Suffolk and Mary Tudor's daughter) used Jane ruthlessly in a way that ended in Jane's death. (I'm getting ahead of the timeline here, but it was not uncommon behaviour).
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QueenCatherine |
27. RE: I STILL can't figure out what thomas boleyn says
Jun 7 2008, 4:21 PM EDT
"Yes. I've been trying to think of one likeable quality for Thomas Boleyn and I'm coming up empty. "So true. He was awful. Of course, I will say he was physically hot. ;) However, that has nothing to do with his personality. Like Forrest Gump said, 'Pretty is is pretty does." He certainly wasn't pretty in that sense. Do you find this valuable? |
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QueenCatherine |
28. RE: I STILL can't figure out what thomas boleyn says
Jun 7 2008, 4:31 PM EDT
"Okay, before I say anything else let me say this. I agree that Thomas Boleyn was portrayed as a wicked wicked man in the series, except for one part. In the season finale Anne remembers her childhood and in that scene Thomas was acting like a very loving and doting father. I think maybe something happened that turned him into that cold and calculating character we've all come to know and despise.I think you really hit things right on in your comment. When you look at the final episode, Anne doesn't remember back once, but twice. These flashbacks have a focus on her relationship with her father. I found that to be interesting because it was like the point was to drive home a particular view of Anne's childhood or Anne's view of her childhood. I got the impression from the plot (not the real history) that Thomas was part of the upper class and lived comfortably and then got a taste of advancement in France and then through Anne at court. He became gradually corrupted. It's one thing to hope your daughter is persued by the king and another to tell her to use what she learned in France to woo him and that her eyes are hooks for the soul. He said something like that in the first season. That's just down right gross. Do you find this valuable? |
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QueenCatherine |
29. RE: I STILL can't figure out what thomas boleyn says
Jun 7 2008, 5:01 PM EDT
I read these comments yesterday that the actor made in a BBC article--"He knows the King's appetites; he knows he loves women. So he offers him his daughters; that's what they're for. It's easy for us to judge him harshly today but I think that he sees his action as advancing the family. He's trying to do what he thinks is best for the family but he's utterly, utterly selfish. It's a warped view of the world."
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Hever |
30. RE: I STILL can't figure out what thomas boleyn says
Jun 7 2008, 5:34 PM EDT
"How many human beings are truly evil? Since they're dealing with real people, I'd prefer that they didn't make them out to be so truly evil - Philippa Gregory has provided quite enough of that - and gave everybody something at least vaguely resembling a redeeming quality."Thats a good way to explain it. Interesting. Do you find this valuable? |
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desiderata |
31. RE: I STILL can't figure out what thomas boleyn says
Jun 7 2008, 5:39 PM EDT
"I read these comments yesterday that the actor made in a BBC article--"He knows the King's appetites; he knows he loves women. So he offers him his daughters; that's what they're for. It's easy for us to judge him harshly today but I think that he sees his action as advancing the family. He's trying to do what he thinks is best for the family but he's utterly, utterly selfish. It's a warped view of the world." "I agree; at what point did he venture out of seeing his daughter Anne as a special bright little star, to seeing her as a puppet made of wood that he could toss in front of who/whatever held the most importance for him (the king was the bait)? It's heartbreaking when you read and wonder about how Anne's life started out so promisingly; even then, she could have done so much and probably made an even greater match (as far as fulfilling a destiny as someone important and to be treated importantly and with respect), and she winds up with an unstable monarch who ultimately doesn't care how smart and well learned and progressive she is...but she'd better pump out some boy children or face the consequences! Do you think maybe that Papa Boleyn started out with good intentions (especially since he knew that Anne showed great promise at an early age)? Being a product of her time (no matter how progressive she was), after all, Anne would always be daddy's little girl, and always ultimately seek his approval (even when he shunned her for "failing" in her mission and face execution and daddy loses everything as a result, bad girl!). Those were the thoughts running through my head during the finale's last scenes, of Anne as a little girl playing with her brother and her father. It was a time when they were all free of ambition and want for power, no burdens placed upon anyone, and little Anne was loved simply for being someone's precious little girl. That Thomas Boleyn is played by such a good looking, talented actor as Nick Dunning (who I will really miss) makes the character's actions even more of a knife twist in the gut. What a great actor! Do you find this valuable? |
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Hever |
32. RE: I STILL can't figure out what thomas boleyn says
Jun 7 2008, 5:46 PM EDT
Anne's father didn't seem to appreciate how much Anne had to do with their rise. How arrogant.
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desiderata |
33. RE: I STILL can't figure out what thomas boleyn says
Jun 7 2008, 6:17 PM EDT
Yeah, what a dad, eh? No mention of a Mama Boleyn (not sure if Anne's parents had a "happy" marriage or not), he pimps out his two daughters to the king (and one pays for Dad's ambitions with her life, the other is disowned) and he forces his son into an unwanted marriage (and George ultimately pays for that too, with his life). Dies in disgrace. Too bad he didn't go to the block. Interesting how he squeaked out of that one.
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Holly2 |
34. RE: I STILL can't figure out what thomas boleyn says
Jun 7 2008, 7:10 PM EDT
"I agree; at what point did he venture out of seeing his daughter Anne as a special bright little star, to seeing her as a puppet made of wood that he could toss in front of who/whatever held the most importance for him (the king was the bait)? It's heartbreaking when you read and wonder about how Anne's life started out so promisingly; even then, she could have done so much and probably made an even greater match (as far as fulfilling a destiny as someone important and to be treated importantly and with respect), and she winds up with an unstable monarch who ultimately doesn't care how smart and well learned and progressive she is...but she'd better pump out some boy children or face the consequences! Do you think maybe that Papa Boleyn started out with good intentions (especially since he knew that Anne showed great promise at an early age)? Being a product of her time (no matter how progressive she was), after all, Anne would always be daddy's little girl, and always ultimately seek his approval (even when he shunned her for "failing" in her mission and face execution and daddy loses everything as a result, bad girl!). Those were the thoughts running through my head during the finale's last scenes, of Anne as a little girl playing with her brother and her father. It was a time when they were all free of ambition and want for power, no burdens placed upon anyone, and little Anne was loved simply for being someone's precious little girl. That Thomas Boleyn is played by such a good looking, talented actor as Nick Dunning (who I will really miss) makes the character's actions even more of a knife twist in the gut. What a great actor! "I'd say that Anne's (real) father started out wanting what was best for his children. The educational opportunities that were made available to Anne, at a time when most girls of her class could barely write their names, definitely suggests that he recognized her intelligence and was progressive enough to encourage it. If the letter sent from Brussels is authentic, then the fact that he, who has never struck me as a sentimental man, kept it would suggest that he was genuinely proud of her. With regard to the series' Boleyn, as you say, there was a time when he was affectionate towards his daughter and treated her like a child to be cherished, not as a tool to be exploited for his benefit but he changed. A similar thing happened with Henry; Anne went from being the woman he loved to an unwanted burden or a walking uterus to house his son, depending on his mood and whether or not she was pregnant. Remember when Anne caught Henry and Jane together? Does anybody think that, if Anne hadn’t been pregnant at the time, Henry would have been so eager to send Jane away and reassure Anne or would he have summarily ordered her to get out and told her, in no uncertain terms, that it was none of her business? He wasn’t concerned for her feelings – earlier, when he was carrying on with other women away from the palace, he may have been able to convince himself that Anne knew nothing about what he was getting up to but he stopped even that slight concession – he was worried about what would happen to her unborn child if she got upset. If he had been willing to be honest with himself, he would have known that her distress at seeing him with Jane Seymour was, at the very least, a contributing factor to her miscarriage. One thing that makes it especially sad is that right up to the end, I think that Anne still loved them both. Do you find this valuable? |
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Holly2 |
35. RE: I STILL can't figure out what thomas boleyn says
Jun 7 2008, 7:19 PM EDT
"Anne's father didn't seem to appreciate how much Anne had to do with their rise. How arrogant."I’d say that that traces back to the whole ‘children as property’ and ‘children as extensions of their parents’ attitude of the time. He probably saw Anne’s intelligence as an inheritance from him, something he had as much cause, if not more, to be proud of as she did. He definitely saw her as his tool, a puppet whose strings he could pull, so crediting her for the part she played in winning Henry’s love and becoming Queen would, for him, be like an artist giving his paintbrush credit for a masterpiece. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
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Holly2 |
36. RE: I STILL can't figure out what thomas boleyn says
Jun 7 2008, 9:05 PM EDT
One detail I noticed about Anne's interaction with her father; in the first season and at the beginning of the second, she addresses him as "Papa". However, after her first miscarriage, he becomes "Father". Mary and (I think) George also change to a more formal and more distant mode of address. Surely that's unusual for adults, who have presumably been using the same name for him since they were tiny.
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QueenCatherine |
37. RE: I STILL can't figure out what thomas boleyn says
Jun 7 2008, 10:16 PM EDT
"One detail I noticed about Anne's interaction with her father; in the first season and at the beginning of the second, she addresses him as "Papa". However, after her first miscarriage, he becomes "Father". Mary and (I think) George also change to a more formal and more distant mode of address. Surely that's unusual for adults, who have presumably been using the same name for him since they were tiny. "Holly2, that is a great observation! I wonder if this is due to the change in her social status? Maybe not since Elizabeth used it or something like it with Henry. Maybe it's an age thing or the fact that the relationship is increasingly becoming less and less affectionate. Do you find this valuable? |
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QueenCatherine |
38. RE: I STILL can't figure out what thomas boleyn says
Jun 7 2008, 10:22 PM EDT
Desiderata said-"That Thomas Boleyn is played by such a good looking, talented actor as Nick Dunning (who I will really miss) makes the character's actions even more of a knife twist in the gut. What a great actor!" I totally agree! The next season will be an adjustment with his absence as well as that of Maria Doyle Kennedy, Natalie Dormer and Jeremy Northam. It's a little sad when so many of the main characters are on their way out. Even when you were already a fan of Tudor history and were expecting it, it's a bit of a change! Do you find this valuable? |
Boudica |
39. RE: I STILL can't figure out what thomas boleyn says
Jun 7 2008, 10:27 PM EDT
"Yes. I've been trying to think of one likeable quality for Thomas Boleyn and I'm coming up empty. "I can think of atleast a definate ONE. He had his daughters educated, not only with private tutors beyond the circulum of typical noble born girls of the day, but also giving them the opportunity to serve in the most illustrious courts in Europe. For Mary it was a corrupting influence, but for Anne her time on the contient molded her into the Queen she would one day be, at least for a little while. Do you find this valuable? |
