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Discussion: James plays Cromwell too nice

Keyword tags: henry viii james frain showtime series the tudors thomas cromwell
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Gigigirl2
Gigigirl2
James plays Cromwell too nice
May 8 2008, 10:37 AM EDT
From everything I've read about Cromwell he was a cruel ambitious man. Frain - whom I love - plays him as as thoughtful and contemplative = esp. in his kind treatment towards Thomas More. Also, he's too handsome to be Cromwell. 3  out of 3 found this valuable. Do you?    
Boudica
Boudica
RE: James plays Cromwell too nice
May 8 2008, 10:42 AM EDT
"From everything I've read about Cromwell he was a cruel ambitious man. Frain - whom I love - plays him as as thoughtful and contemplative = esp. in his kind treatment towards Thomas More. Also, he's too handsome to be Cromwell."
I think he's going to get much more vicious, especially when he constructs the evidence against Anne Boleyn.
Practically every character is ridiculously attractive, I mean look at Sam Niel as Wolsey! I don't think there's an ugly person cast yet.
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Hever
Hever
RE: James plays Cromwell too nice
May 8 2008, 10:45 AM EDT
"I think he's going to get much more vicious, especially when he constructs the evidence against Anne Boleyn.
Practically every character is ridiculously attractive, I mean look at Sam Niel as Wolsey! I don't think there's an ugly person cast yet."
And thank god for it. It would be a shame if JRM wasn't in it. And I agree that Cromwell will get worse.
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Boudica
Boudica
RE: James plays Cromwell too nice
May 8 2008, 10:47 AM EDT
Oh, and I just remembered, he did turn a bit to the dark side in season 1 - when he tore up the letter from Wolsey asking for his help after his arrest. He looked conflicted, which I suspose is natural if Cromwell is going to be played from a perspective that belives he's not inherently evil just a corrupted human being. Do you find this valuable?    
Hever
Hever
RE: James plays Cromwell too nice
May 8 2008, 10:50 AM EDT
"Oh, and I just remembered, he did turn a bit to the dark side in season 1 - when he tore up the letter from Wolsey asking for his help after his arrest. He looked conflicted, which I suspose is natural if Cromwell is going to be played from a perspective that belives he's not inherently evil just a corrupted human being."
Yes, I think that was more that he couldn't help Wolsey because he has to look out for himself.
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Holly2
Holly2
RE: James plays Cromwell too nice
May 8 2008, 2:20 PM EDT
I think that he does well as a guy who is looking out for himself, and trying to promote a faith that he seems to genuinely believe in. I don't know if I'd describe him as cruel - I don't see him as someone who was nasty for the sake of being nasty - but I think he viewed other people as being expendable.

Look at Anne - it suited him very well for someone who shared his beliefs to have Henry's ear, and for Henry's love for her to lead to a separation from the papacy but as soon as Cromwell considers Anne to be a liability rather than an asset, he'll distance himself from her, he will be ruthless in removing her and he won't lose any sleep over it.
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angelosdaughter
angelosdaughter
RE: James plays Cromwell too nice
May 8 2008, 2:25 PM EDT
"From everything I've read about Cromwell he was a cruel ambitious man. Frain - whom I love - plays him as as thoughtful and contemplative = esp. in his kind treatment towards Thomas More. Also, he's too handsome to be Cromwell."
Amen. The two best performances in the role of Cromwell that I have seen are Leo McKern in "A Man for All Seasons" and John Colicos in "Anne of the Thousand Days." McKern has the common touch and Cromwell was of common birth and had a rather blunt unhandsome face. Collcos emphasizes Cromwell's sinister insidious opportunistic nature that brought him to power. .
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miller-pvkk

miller-pvkk
RE: James plays Cromwell too nice
May 8 2008, 2:59 PM EDT
"Amen. The two best performances in the role of Cromwell that I have seen are Leo McKern in "A Man for All Seasons" and John Colicos in "Anne of the Thousand Days." McKern has the common touch and Cromwell was of common birth and had a rather blunt unhandsome face. Collcos emphasizes Cromwell's sinister insidious opportunistic nature that brought him to power. . "
This is a good idea for a thread. I had been thinking myself that Cromwell is depicted in the show as being much nicer than I have always imagined him. AD, I agree with you regarding the two performances you mention. I think both men did an excellent job of portraying Cromwell. I love it in "Anne of a Thousand Days" when Cromwell says "I am a lawyer who reads the law". Then, when he leaves the room after presenting his ideas to Henry and Anne, he breathes this huge sign of relief. I'm assuming Frain has been told to play Cromwell as a more conflicted character. I've never seen him played that way before. It will be interesting to see if his character changes as the season progresses.
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MsSquirrly
MsSquirrly
RE: James plays Cromwell too nice
May 8 2008, 5:28 PM EDT
I think that because we have the benefit of hindsight, we form an opinion of Cromwell was being this overtly manipulative and mean character but really at the time, he was known as being very good at his job so he probably came across as "nice" ( if that is the word) to those around him. Henry relied on him as being both a good advisor and efficient at his job. Of course, now we know he was most definitely lining his own pockets and plotting Wolsey's and Anne's downfall....among others. 2  out of 2 found this valuable. Do you?    
angelosdaughter
angelosdaughter
RE: James plays Cromwell too nice
May 8 2008, 8:23 PM EDT
"This is a good idea for a thread. I had been thinking myself that Cromwell is depicted in the show as being much nicer than I have always imagined him. AD, I agree with you regarding the two performances you mention. I think both men did an excellent job of portraying Cromwell. I love it in "Anne of a Thousand Days" when Cromwell says "I am a lawyer who reads the law". Then, when he leaves the room after presenting his ideas to Henry and Anne, he breathes this huge sign of relief. I'm assuming Frain has been told to play Cromwell as a more conflicted character. I've never seen him played that way before. It will be interesting to see if his character changes as the season progresses."
You know, Cromwell was the king's functionary. I get the impression that it was difficult to know what he thought about anything. Cromwell the man never revealed himself, which was undoubtedly the smart thing to do in his position. I was surprised to read somewhere (I'll try to find the source) that before his execution, Cromwell affirmed his belief in the old faith. I had always seen him as a Protestant reformer.
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MerryE
MerryE
RE: James plays Cromwell too nice
Jun 1 2008, 1:05 PM EDT
""... as soon as Cromwell considers Anne to be a liability rather than an asset, he'll distance himself from her, he will be ruthless in removing her and he won't lose any sleep over it. ""
Anne was his ally in what I agree seems to be a genuine interest for Cromwell, the Reformation. Her becoming a liability to the movement and to him, at least as shown in this drama, happens after two clear attacks on him personally. He is smart enough to realize that yes, this woman could take him down . So, which is he more concerned with - his own survival, or his being around to keep the Reformation going? Is she more of a threat to him or the destruction of the Catholic Church? She does still seem interested in how the Reformation is going.

He could never have "removed" her unless it was by Henry's command. He has not been portrayed as going to Henry and saying anything against Anne after either of the two times she attacks him. The King's reaction to any servant speaking out against his Queen would likely not be tolerated. But as soon as he says to Cromwell - I want her gone, make it happen, then Cromwell has all sorts of motivation not to hesitate in her downfall.

I expect Cromwell has been written as conflicted in this series and I have no clue how the real Cromwell evolved from soldier to ruthless Tudor henchman, but James Frain has always been excellent at bringing humanity to evil characters. And yes, he is certainly much prettier than the real Cromwell!
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LovetheTudors

LovetheTudors
RE: James plays Cromwell too nice
Jun 1 2008, 1:43 PM EDT
Actually, I think James Frain is diabolically nice. He doesn't fall prey to the arrogance and predilection for display that Wolsey had. Because of his lowly origins, he doesn't have the sense of entitlement or the fabulous meltdowns that people of noble birth are prone to (i.e. Anne Boleyn et. al.). He watches and listens, and this makes him dangerous and destructive. Folks don't even know he has destroyed them until they are walking up to the scaffold. One doesn't get this far down a career path if one is an absolute boor. I think James Frain is playing it right.
I also believe Cromwell is genuinely motivated by his religious beliefs - he probably did more than any one person to get English bibles into parish churches.
The wild card in all of this, of course, is H-8. As he shouted to Chapuys last week, no one knows all the secrets of his heart. Unfortunately, Cromwell didn't either...but he had a good run.
Cromwell messed up by forgetting that H-8 thinks with his codpiece. It never occurred to Cromwell that once Henry had a son that being in love with his wife was still a marital requirement for Henry. Europe was agog when Henry dumped Anne of Cleves because it was inconceivable to most people that he would put his country at risk politically by putting aside his wife because he found her wife unattractive. Beauty was not a requirement for a successful marriage.
But it was for Henry. Coupled with the unsuccessful marriage was the fact that Cromwell overestimated how far Henry wanted to go with the Reformation. Henry was conservative - he wanted Catholicism without the pope. Once he associated Cromwell with an ugly wife and radical religious change, his servant was doomed. Of course, once Henry stopped thinking with his codpiece, he regretted killing such an efficient and reliable servant.
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angelosdaughter
angelosdaughter
RE: James plays Cromwell too nice
Jun 1 2008, 5:04 PM EDT
"Anne was his ally in what I agree seems to be a genuine interest for Cromwell, the Reformation. Her becoming a liability to the movement and to him, at least as shown in this drama, happens after two clear attacks on him personally. He is smart enough to realize that yes, this woman could take him down . So, which is he more concerned with - his own survival, or his being around to keep the Reformation going? Is she more of a threat to him or the destruction of the Catholic Church? She does still seem interested in how the Reformation is going.

He could never have "removed" her unless it was by Henry's command. He has not been portrayed as going to Henry and saying anything against Anne after either of the two times she attacks him. The King's reaction to any servant speaking out against his Queen would likely not be tolerated. But as soon as he says to Cromwell - I want her gone, make it happen, then Cromwell has all sorts of motivation not to hesitate in her downfall.

I expect Cromwell has been written as conflicted in this series and I have no clue how the real Cromwell evolved from soldier to ruthless Tudor henchman, but James Frain has always been excellent at bringing humanity to evil characters. And yes, he is certainly much prettier than the real Cromwell!"
Both Leo McKern in "A Man for All Seasons" (and he looks more like the historical Cromwell) and John Colicos in "Anne of the Thousand Days" depict recognizable facets of Cromwell very well. McKern is great at portaying Cromwell's common origins and the lengths to which he will go as the king's functionary. Colicos protrays Cromwell's rise, his oily deviousness, and his conviction that absolute power must ultimately be invested in the King with him as facilitatior. It is Cromwell who unleashes the King's recognition of his true power, and of course is ultimately one of the casualties of it.
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Reginabee
Reginabee
RE: James plays Cromwell too nice
Jun 1 2008, 6:00 PM EDT
"From everything I've read about Cromwell he was a cruel ambitious man. Frain - whom I love - plays him as as thoughtful and contemplative = esp. in his kind treatment towards Thomas More. Also, he's too handsome to be Cromwell."

He certainly doesn't seem to have much of a stomach for torture and execution, does he? Kind of odd for a man who "used to be" a mercenary.
.
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miller-pvkk

miller-pvkk
RE: James plays Cromwell too nice
Jun 1 2008, 9:02 PM EDT
"
He certainly doesn't seem to have much of a stomach for torture and execution, does he? Kind of odd for a man who "used to be" a mercenary.
."
True. He always acts upset while he's watching somebody die or being tortured. That's not how I picture Cromwell. Then he appears to be troubled over Anne's execution during the prayer scene in the chapel. I don't know that he gave Anne's execution a second thought, even though she was very sympathetic toward his desire to bring reform to the Church. Unfortunately, in the process of "reform", he helped Henry gain so much power that it was ultimately used against him. I guess there was nobody around to "reform" Henry.
Also, I agree with you that the gentlemen playing Cromwell is quite handsome, when the real Cromwell, based on his portrait, was not a great looking guy.
In fact, just about everybody in that show is really good looking. You would think that everybody in the 16th century was absolutely gorgeous!
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MerryE
MerryE
RE: James plays Cromwell too nice
Jun 2 2008, 10:50 PM EDT
"... he appears to be troubled over Anne's execution during the prayer scene in the chapel. "
I've been thinking about this scene. He looks absolutely distraught. I have to think that he may be concerned about a number of things. Is this the right course - for the King?...for the Reformation movement?...for the kingdom? And the BIG what if - what happens if the King is completely mortified about this execution in a week or two, as he has been after other horrible events? If I were Cromwell, I'd be well aware at this point that my head could easily be next. He in fact, had just 4 more years of serving the King before his own trip to the Tower.

Henry himself outlives Anne Bolelyn by just 11 years. A LOT happens in that time. I can't imagine what horrors would have transpired if Henry had lived longer!?
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miller-pvkk

miller-pvkk
RE: James plays Cromwell too nice
Jun 2 2008, 11:25 PM EDT
"I've been thinking about this scene. He looks absolutely distraught. I have to think that he may be concerned about a number of things. Is this the right course - for the King?...for the Reformation movement?...for the kingdom? And the BIG what if - what happens if the King is completely mortified about this execution in a week or two, as he has been after other horrible events? If I were Cromwell, I'd be well aware at this point that my head could easily be next. He in fact, had just 4 more years of serving the King before his own trip to the Tower.

Henry himself outlives Anne Bolelyn by just 11 years. A LOT happens in that time. I can't imagine what horrors would have transpired if Henry had lived longer!?"
Yes, I'm sure a lot more heads would have rolled. The Duke of Norfolk was saved by Henry's death (not that I admire that jerk, of course).
It is ironic that Cromwell ultimately became the victim of what he helped create.
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angelosdaughter
angelosdaughter
RE: James plays Cromwell too nice
Jun 3 2008, 1:18 AM EDT
" I love it in "Anne of a Thousand Days" when Cromwell says "I am a lawyer who reads the law". Then, when he leaves the room after presenting his ideas to Henry and Anne, he breathes this huge sign of relief.
"
I love that moment, too, miller, it makes Cromwell seem more human than we are used to seeing him.
He may have been a thoughtful man, but he was certainly never one to let on what he thought. Officially he thought whatever the king thought, and it was his job to see that the king always got what he wanted no matter what dirty work he had to perform to do that.
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Holly2
Holly2
RE: James plays Cromwell too nice
Jun 3 2008, 2:24 AM EDT
"I've been thinking about this scene. He looks absolutely distraught. I have to think that he may be concerned about a number of things. Is this the right course - for the King?...for the Reformation movement?...for the kingdom? And the BIG what if - what happens if the King is completely mortified about this execution in a week or two, as he has been after other horrible events? If I were Cromwell, I'd be well aware at this point that my head could easily be next. He in fact, had just 4 more years of serving the King before his own trip to the Tower. "
Good point. Remember More's death? The very next episode, Henry is insisting that he didn't want More to die and that Anne was the one who pushed him to do it - did she ever speak of More to anyone, at any point? - and blaming her for his actions.
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lettice
lettice
RE: James plays Cromwell too nice
Jun 3 2008, 10:36 AM EDT
"From everything I've read about Cromwell he was a cruel ambitious man. Frain - whom I love - plays him as as thoughtful and contemplative = esp. in his kind treatment towards Thomas More. Also, he's too handsome to be Cromwell."
Absolutely! I've seen Cromwell's portrait. Frain is much too handsome, but I'm enjoying his portrayal. He seems more multidimensional.
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