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Henry Fitzroy
Discussion: Henry Fitzroy
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Henry Fitzroy
May 4 2008, 1:23 PM EDT Why would they kill him off so young as it lived quite a bit longer, this could have been an interesting story line...ant thoughts on this Do you find this valuable? |
 Hever |
RE: Henry Fitzroy
May 4 2008, 1:41 PM EDT "Why would they kill him off so young as it lived quite a bit longer, this could have been an interesting story line...ant thoughts on this"Maybe because not much is really known about him or maybe because they wanted to push home Henrys need for a son. By having him die so young it dramatised it all just a bit. It is the same with Margarets character, I don't know why they did that though. 1 out of 1 found this valuable. Do you? |
 angelosdaughter |
RE: Henry Fitzroy
May 4 2008, 6:03 PM EDT "Why would they kill him off so young as it lived quite a bit longer, this could have been an interesting story line...ant thoughts on this"At one time Henry (when he realized that Katharine was nearing the end of her childbearing years without having borne a male heir) behaved as though he was grooming Fitzroy to be his heir. That was why he invested him with the titles Duke of Richmond (which I think had been Henry VII's title before he was king) and Somerset, the Order of the Garter, and Lord High Admiral and afterward had him well educated and provided him with an establishment befitting his rank. Actually, in Henry's defense, this is some proof that the thought of putting aside Queen Katherine had not yet entered his mind, even though the ennoblement of Fitzroy irritated the Queen. It is interesting to note that one of the cultural differences that came between Henry and Katharine was the Salic Law that banned a woman from ruling England in her own right. It was also so in Aragon, but in Katharine's mother's kingdom of Castile which she had in her own right, a woman could reign. Katharine could not understand why if Henry could ennoble and legitimize his bastard son (he apparently did consider setting Parliament to enact such a law) Weir, pp134-35, and make him his heir, (there was no precedent for that) her daughter, Mary could reign over England as Queen; her grandmother had been an able and active ruler; in fact Isabella was a warrior queen. Katharine had been born in the midst of war; Isabella had turned aside from battle to bear her daughter whom she left in the care of nurses the day after and retuned to the war. It is no wonder that Katharine assumed a woman could be competent to lead a country. Anyway, back to the subject at hand, Fitzroy was married to Lady Mary Howard at 14, but the marriage was thought to be unconsummated (and so history repeats itself) because of Fitzroy's fragile health. He died, it is thought, of tuberculosis, at the age of 17. Fraser, pg. 30. Do you find this valuable? |
 Holly2 |
RE: Henry Fitzroy
May 4 2008, 7:05 PM EDT "Why would they kill him off so young as it lived quite a bit longer, this could have been an interesting story line...ant thoughts on this"My gut feeling is that they did this to simplify the storyline and to emphasize Henry's desire for a son. I think that the real Henry was very conscious of the fact that the Tudors were a very young dynasty and he felt that he needed a strong heir to follow him if the line was to survive. From our perspective, Mary being Queen in her own right isn't a problem but, from where Henry was sitting, it wasn't a safe option by any means. A queen regnant would have been a new experience for England. As well as that, Mary was going to have to marry if she wanted to produce an heir and, if she married a king or his heir, England would basically be her dowry and would come under her husband's sway. Fitzroy was the other option but putting an illegitimate child on the throne would also be tricky, at best, especially when there would have been quite a few nobles with royal blood knocking about who might take advantage of a tustle between Mary and Fitzroy over the crown and sneak the throne out from under them. Henry believed that he needed a legitimate male heir to follow him. Mary fulfilled one of the requirements and Fitzroy the other but I think that Henry was afraid that that wouldn't be enough. Do you find this valuable? |
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angelosdaughter |
RE: Henry Fitzroy
May 4 2008, 7:31 PM EDT "My gut feeling is that they did this to simplify the storyline and to emphasize Henry's desire for a son.Given the weakness of the physical constitutions of Henry's male heirs and his own brother his concern was understandable; even his parents after the death of his elder brother Arthur at 15 were concerned enough about Henry's being the only male heir remaining forbade him to engage in one of his favorite pasttimes of jousting because of the possibility of its causing injury or death. On the other hand, Henry did at times consider the possiblity of Mary's being his heir. If he had named her so and dispensed with the drama and turmoil that occurred because of his pursuit of a male heir, she might have been as competent a queen as her grandmother Isabella and birthed strong heirs. Or Elizabeth unscarred by her childhood might have married and been mother to heirs for the dynasty. It didn't follow that a woman reigning in her own right had to accept a subordinate position to her consort. Queen Isabella of Castile was as example that Henry would have been aquainted with. But for him and many others of his time, women were inferior, unworthy and good only as brood mares and playthings. As it is, the Tudor dynasty turned out to be short-lived in any case. It began with Henry VIII in 1485. It ended with Elizabeth in 1603, 118 years. It lasted as long as it did only because Henry had two daughters who in spite of their mistreatment lived long enough to reign. Do you find this valuable? |
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Hever |
RE: Henry Fitzroy
May 4 2008, 9:00 PM EDT Henry apparently at one stage was going to marry Fitroy to his daughter Mary. I hope thats not true. Do you find this valuable? |
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Holly2 |
RE: Henry Fitzroy
May 4 2008, 9:17 PM EDT "Henry apparently at one stage was going to marry Fitroy to his daughter Mary. I hope thats not true."I've heard that. It was supposedly one of the proposed solutions to the succession crisis that were floated as alternatives to Henry divorcing Katherine and marrying Anne. I don't know who proposed it. I doubt that Henry would have considered it seriously. If nothing else, siblings, even half-siblings, are likely to have defective or deformed offspring. Do you find this valuable? |
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angelosdaughter |
RE: Henry Fitzroy
May 4 2008, 10:17 PM EDT "I've heard that. It was supposedly one of the proposed solutions to the succession crisis that were floated as alternatives to Henry divorcing Katherine and marrying Anne. I don't know who proposed it. I doubt that Henry would have considered it seriously. If nothing else, siblings, even half-siblings, are likely to have defective or deformed offspring."Actually, I think it was while Henry and Katharine were still contentedly married that Henry ennobled Fitzroy. H & K of A did have a huge argument over it. They reconciled. Later after the king became smitten with Anne, it is true that Henry's advisers proposed marrying Henry Fitzroy to Henry's daughter, Mary. It even had the unspoken agreement of the Pope(!) if Henry would give up the idea of a divorce. The urgency for divorcing Katharine, although it had been considered before in the interest of getting a male heir, came after he fell in love with Anne and knew that he would not be able to have her unless he could marry her. It should be remembered that in ancient Egypt, it was common for sisters and brothers to marry to preserve the purity! of the blood. Because of the custom of intermarrying (many of Queen Victoria's children married cousins), some unfortunate traits were perpetuated among which was the hemophilia which Alexei, son of Nicholas, the last czar of Russia, suffered. One of Queen Victoria's sons, Prince Leopold, also had it. The tzarevitch's mother, Alexandra was a granddaughter of Queen Victoria; her mother was Princess Alice. Tzar Nicholas' mother, the Empress Marie (originally a princess of Denmark) was the sister of Victoria's son, Edward's wife, Alexandra of Denmark. Their son, later King George V, was a first cousin of Tzar Nicholas, so you can see how inbred everyone was. In Henry's time, and even since, one of the hallmarks of Habsburg inbreeding is a grotesquely protruding lower jaw which can be seen in some portraits of the Emperor Charles V. and even some of the Emperor Franz Josef's children, Princess Valerie for one. To marry someone in such a close degree of affinity was against canon law and inatural law in most places, but the pope was willing to render a dispensation if Henry would give up the idea of divorce. Fraser, pg. 151. The system was indeed corrupt. Do you find this valuable? |
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Holly2 |
RE: Henry Fitzroy
May 7 2008, 11:26 AM EDT It's hard to believe that there was a time when incest was the lesser evil compared to divorce. I wonder if Pope Clement, the Emperor and Katherine would have acted differently regarding the divorce if they had had access to a crystal ball and could see what would happen in England over the course of the sixteenth century. Do you find this valuable? |
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angelosdaughter |
RE: Henry Fitzroy
May 7 2008, 11:29 AM EDT "It's hard to believe that there was a time when incest was the lesser evil compared to divorce.Good point! Do you find this valuable? |
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Holly2 |
RE: Henry Fitzroy
May 7 2008, 11:38 AM EDT "Good point! "I don't think anybody - including Anne herself - expected Henry to stick to his resolve to marry her as long as he did, not when there were so many obstacles in front of them. Hindsight is 20-20. I wonder if Katherine regretted not taking the offer to retire to a nunnery, or if, given the chance to do it all over again, Clement and the Emperor would allow the divorce if they knew that England would separate from the Church in Rome. Of course, if Katherine had a chance to repeat her actions, she might have dragged Anne and Henry Percy in front of the nearest priest so that they could be married c. 1523. Do you find this valuable? |