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Discussion: How many pregnancies did Anne Boleyn actually have?


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antoinette2
antoinette2
How many pregnancies did Anne Boleyn actually have?
Apr 29 2008, 11:41 PM EDT
I've read that Anne may have had as many as four pregancies, stillbirths etc after Elizabeth's birth. Does anyone have some well researched information on this? It seems that most of her miscarries were male?
What do you think contributed to her losing these babies?
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aragon77

aragon77
RE: How many pregnancies did Anne Boleyn actually have?
Apr 30 2008, 11:06 AM EDT
I read on this page she had Elizabeth I, and 3 other babies that did not make it. http://tudorswiki.sho.com/page/Anne+Boleyn 6  out of 6 found this valuable. Do you?    
antoinette2
antoinette2
RE: How many pregnancies did Anne Boleyn actually have?
Apr 30 2008, 2:20 PM EDT
"I read on this page she had Elizabeth I, and 3 other babies that did not make it. http://tudorswiki.sho.com/page/Anne+Boleyn"
Hmmm. Frasier says a miscarriage in 1534 (p.219) and her last in October 1535 (p.223) which she only carried until the end of January, a few weeks after Queen Catherine's death.
It's absolutely errie the way that things went really bad for Anne after Catherine's death. Frasier makes the statement on p. 245 that "the influence of the dead woman (Catherine) stretched from beyond her grave in Peterborough Cathedral to pull down the woman who had supplanted her." As long as Catherine was alive, Henry couldn't really do anything about Anne and her miscarriages but once Catherine died, it was open season on Anne.
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Boudica
Boudica
RE: How many pregnancies did Anne Boleyn actually have?
Apr 30 2008, 2:45 PM EDT
"Hmmm. Frasier says a miscarriage in 1534 (p.219) and her last in October 1535 (p.223) which she only carried until the end of January, a few weeks after Queen Catherine's death.
It's absolutely errie the way that things went really bad for Anne after Catherine's death. Frasier makes the statement on p. 245 that "the influence of the dead woman (Catherine) stretched from beyond her grave in Peterborough Cathedral to pull down the woman who had supplanted her." As long as Catherine was alive, Henry couldn't really do anything about Anne and her miscarriages but once Catherine died, it was open season on Anne. "
Yes I remember reading about the child she miscarried in January of 1536, it was just developed enough at 15 weeks for the sex to be identified, as male! Another time, I believe she gave birth to a stillborn male who was given the name Henry Tudor (I need to review Ives or another source to make sure). Aside from supernatural causes, I think the tremendous amount of stress Anne was under as time progressed (her pregnancies were less and less successful as time past) and poor prenatal care had a lot to do with her not being able to carry another baby to term.
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antoinette2
antoinette2
RE: How many pregnancies did Anne Boleyn actually have?
Apr 30 2008, 3:00 PM EDT
"Aside from supernatural causes, I think the tremendous amount of stress Anne was under as time progressed (her pregnancies were less and less successful as time past) and poor prenatal care had a lot to do with her not being able to carry another baby to term."
I agree. Ives mentions that Anne's coronation meant little without her delivering a male child. If she had been able to do so, a lot of the factions going on would have been diminished, Henry would have had his boy and voila, maybe a happy ending. But by delivering a female, she had increased pressure on her to give Henry that boy and solidify their marriage, the pressures of the Aragon factions, perhaps the annulement would have been given by the Pope, as their was finally a male child. All those pregancies one on top of the other had to be sapping her of her strength. She carried Elizabeth with no problems. Her body needed to recover.
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Holly2
Holly2
RE: How many pregnancies did Anne Boleyn actually have?
Apr 30 2008, 3:39 PM EDT
"I agree. Ives mentions that Anne's coronation meant little without her delivering a male child. If she had been able to do so, a lot of the factions going on would have been diminished, Henry would have had his boy and voila, maybe a happy ending. But by delivering a female, she had increased pressure on her to give Henry that boy and solidify their marriage, the pressures of the Aragon factions, perhaps the annulement would have been given by the Pope, as their was finally a male child. All those pregancies one on top of the other had to be sapping her of her strength. She carried Elizabeth with no problems. Her body needed to recover."
Do you really think that the birth of a boy would have made the Pope give Henry his annulment? I'm very curious about how it would have worked out. I think it would definitely have made Anne's life easier and, if Henry lived long enough, it's very possible that he could have secured the succession for a son, even if there had been a shadow over his legitimacy.

I remember in Norah Lofts' book, "The Concubine", she had Katherine thinking that if Anne had a son, even the most conservative of Englishmen would basically convince themselves that he was legitimate if the alternative was a woman succeeding. While I think that it would be too optimistic to expect everybody in England to just fall in line, and I don't see the Emperor offering to be godfather or the Pope telling Henry "turns out your marriage to Katherine was invalid after all, sorry for the inconvenience, old chap. All the best to your lovely new wife", I wonder how close to the truth that would be.
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Boudica
Boudica
RE: How many pregnancies did Anne Boleyn actually have?
Apr 30 2008, 4:22 PM EDT
I added "The Concubine" to the Tudors Fiction bookshelf, if you would like to post a review that would be awesome!
http://tudorswiki.sho.com/page/The+Tudors+Bookshelf+Fiction
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antoinette2
antoinette2
RE: How many pregnancies did Anne Boleyn actually have?
Apr 30 2008, 4:59 PM EDT
"While I think that it would be too optimistic to expect everybody in England to just fall in line, and I don't see the Emperor offering to be godfather or the Pope telling Henry "turns out your marriage to Katherine was invalid after all, sorry for the inconvenience, old chap. All the best to your lovely new wife", I wonder how close to the truth that would be."
Holly II, I'm not saying that it is necessarily true that all would have been forgiven, but you might want to read the comments made by Ives on p. 169-170 of his revised 2004 book. A male child would have taken tremendous pressure off of Anne. Ives writes that having a female child continued to make Anne "a pretender" and served to keep her status on notice in England and on the continent. It's actually quite disturbing when you think about how revered the male child was and still is to the world. Go back to ancient Greece, China, India and many other countries including old Europe where women were basically bargaining chips to be sold to the most qualified bidder for whatever reason and become baby-producing machines but sons were joyously welcomed. There was this underlining behavior that women were completely expendable. Many died in childbirth and the husband just married another to produce more and run his household. Consider Katherine Parr who was married twice before she married Henry, then married Thomas Seymour, only to die from puerperal fever after the birth as Jane Seymour did. She had a baby girl who disappeared into history and no one knows what became of her.
It was therefore perceived by that time that Anne had failed in her manifest destiny by having a female. There is an alleged comment from that old gossip, Chapuys, that Henry told Anne after her last miscarriage that "he would have no more boys by her!" There was also that comment Anne' creepy father made when she lost the second child...something like "what did you do to the baby to make you lose it?" as if it were her fault. It was a pretty creepy scene.
I am just saying that considering the importance of the male heir, you can't underestimate how things might have changed Anne's status as Queen and wife, if Elizabeth had been a male.
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Antoinette99
Antoinette99
RE: How many pregnancies did Anne Boleyn actually have?
May 1 2008, 5:44 PM EDT
"I've read that Anne may have had as many as four pregancies, stillbirths etc after Elizabeth's birth. Does anyone have some well researched information on this? It seems that most of her miscarries were male?
What do you think contributed to her losing these babies?"
it is very odd that all of her stillbirths were male. I wonder if there was a health problem connected to delivering a healthy male child. I wonder if rumors about Henry contracting syphilis were related to this. They say that stillbirths are a side effect of syphilis and he was a very promiscuous man. He could easily have contracted this disease. It would also explain why Elizabeth I never conceived. It was said that she was not a technical Virgin. There is more to the story than "Anne was just worn out."
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antoinette2
antoinette2
RE: How many pregnancies did Anne Boleyn actually have?
May 1 2008, 7:19 PM EDT
"it is very odd that all of her stillbirths were male. I wonder if there was a health problem connected to delivering a healthy male child. I wonder if rumors about Henry contracting syphilis were related to this. They say that stillbirths are a side effect of syphilis and he was a very promiscuous man. He could easily have contracted this disease. It would also explain why Elizabeth I never conceived. It was said that she was not a technical Virgin. There is more to the story than "Anne was just worn out.""
There really isn't anyway of knowing medically why these stillbirths births were male or why Anne miscarried all the preganancies after Elizabeth. There were no autopsies back then and nothing to work with now even if they exhumed whatever was in the tomb. The babies could have just as well been dead females. Queens did not nurse their children, which would have given her some protection from an immediate pregnancy and also helped her get back into shape gynocologically. I don't believe that Henry was syphiltic as was Francis I. (Ives states this on page 190 of his book.) He raises the question that Henry might have been the problem with conception either physically or genetically. Historians have discussed Henry's perodic impotency and the rumor that he could not get an erection or sustain it as he became older. Catherine had at 5 miscarriages out of six pregancies, Anne, ttwo miscarriages and one birth. Only Elizabeth Blount and Jane Seymour had sons. Anne's sister Mary, became pregnant after she married her first husband.
As for Elizabeth I never conceiving, she was never married and would have never had a child out of wedlock. It was a political decision. If she did have sex, she would have practiced some sort of birth control. Elizabeth enjoyed sexual flirtation in the sense of "attention without intention." I think she spent her childhood and young adult life seeing all the people around her suffer and/or die because of their love interests and sexual indiscretions.
(If anyone knows of a reason why a woman might miscarry only male children, let us all know!)
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aragon77

aragon77
RE: How many pregnancies did Anne Boleyn actually have?
May 2 2008, 7:48 AM EDT
"it is very odd that all of her stillbirths were male. I wonder if there was a health problem connected to delivering a healthy male child. I wonder if rumors about Henry contracting syphilis were related to this. They say that stillbirths are a side effect of syphilis and he was a very promiscuous man. He could easily have contracted this disease. It would also explain why Elizabeth I never conceived. It was said that she was not a technical Virgin. There is more to the story than "Anne was just worn out.""
Defiantly more to the story. I know from experience the Dr's tell you to refrain from having sex after a baby b/c it’s so easy to get pregnant again. I think it was Henry's punishment for all the mess he put others through. When he finally did have his "boy" what did it change. A more logic explanation for her miscarriages is stress. She was not stressed when she had Elizabeth, but at the top of her game then, and trying to conceive Henry a son her body was stressed I’m sure. I have had a miscarriage before, and the Dr. told me any 2 women on the street can have atleast 2, after 2 then testing should be done. A miscarriage during your first trimester is something due to the baby, but anything after 12wks there is an issue with the mother. This is straight out of a OBGYN's mouth.

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aragon77

aragon77
RE: How many pregnancies did Anne Boleyn actually have?
May 2 2008, 7:51 AM EDT
"There really isn't anyway of knowing medically why these stillbirths births were male or why Anne miscarried all the preganancies after Elizabeth. There were no autopsies back then and nothing to work with now even if they exhumed whatever was in the tomb. The babies could have just as well been dead females. Queens did not nurse their children, which would have given her some protection from an immediate pregnancy and also helped her get back into shape gynocologically. I don't believe that Henry was syphiltic as was Francis I. (Ives states this on page 190 of his book.) He raises the question that Henry might have been the problem with conception either physically or genetically. Historians have discussed Henry's perodic impotency and the rumor that he could not get an erection or sustain it as he became older. Catherine had at 5 miscarriages out of six pregancies, Anne, ttwo miscarriages and one birth. Only Elizabeth Blount and Jane Seymour had sons. Anne's sister Mary, became pregnant after she married her first husband.
As for Elizabeth I never conceiving, she was never married and would have never had a child out of wedlock. It was a political decision. If she did have sex, she would have practiced some sort of birth control. Elizabeth enjoyed sexual flirtation in the sense of "attention without intention." I think she spent her childhood and young adult life seeing all the people around her suffer and/or die because of their love interests and sexual indiscretions.
(If anyone knows of a reason why a woman might miscarry only male children, let us all know!)
"
Or apples don't fall far from the tree (Elizabeth like her mom & dad). Why don't you think Henry had a disease? Don't you think it could have been possible especially if Francis had it? They both had sex quite often.
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Boudica
Boudica
RE: How many pregnancies did Anne Boleyn actually have?
May 2 2008, 10:26 AM EDT
"Or apples don't fall far from the tree (Elizabeth like her mom & dad). Why don't you think Henry had a disease? Don't you think it could have been possible especially if Francis had it? They both had sex quite often."
He may have had a genetic disorder that we may never know of but he didn't have syphilis and his ulcered leg wasn't the result of an STD it was due to complicated healing after a sporting injury.
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Boudica
Boudica
RE: How many pregnancies did Anne Boleyn actually have?
May 2 2008, 10:36 AM EDT
"Defiantly more to the story. I know from experience the Dr's tell you to refrain from having sex after a baby b/c it’s so easy to get pregnant again."
Well there is reason behind why Henry and other nobles didn't let their wives breast feed their own children. It's so their milk dries up, decreasing the level of the hormone prolactin (a natural contraceptive that they didn't know about in the sixteenth century but they were aware of it's effects) which suppresses the production of estrogen during breastfeeding delaying ovulation. Women of the nobility were like brood mares, they got pregnant, had their confinement, gave birth, got pregnant again, and the cycle continues until metopause or death.
Lovely, eh?
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Boudica
Boudica
RE: How many pregnancies did Anne Boleyn actually have?
May 2 2008, 10:58 AM EDT
"Hmmm. Frasier says a miscarriage in 1534 (p.219) and her last in October 1535 (p.223) which she only carried until the end of January, a few weeks after Queen Catherine's death.
It's absolutely errie the way that things went really bad for Anne after Catherine's death. Frasier makes the statement on p. 245 that "the influence of the dead woman (Catherine) stretched from beyond her grave in Peterborough Cathedral to pull down the woman who had supplanted her." As long as Catherine was alive, Henry couldn't really do anything about Anne and her miscarriages but once Catherine died, it was open season on Anne. "
I was thumbing around the index in Ives last night, he lists just two other pregnancies (besides Elizabeth) like Fraser.
pregnant, December 1533 which resulted in miscarriage in July 1534
then another pregnancy that appeared October 1535 which resulted in miscarriage on January 29, 1536 at 15 weeks as recorded by one court physician who was present. This was the miscarriage that led to rumours of a deformed fetus. The Catholic exile and propagandist Nicolas Sander (who wrote 40 years after the event) described the fetus as "a shapeless mass of flesh". Granted, this is the same person who wrote that AB had a sixth finger, a third breast, and was Henry's daughter. Retha Warnicke elaborates on this theory but Ives flatly denies it based on lack of evidence.
"A cover story which held for 450 years but had been unnecssary in the first place invites more than a raised eyebrow. In history, evidence matters, not invention, and no evidence whatsoever supports the alleged deformity." (page 297)
He also doubts that the fetus could have accurately been identified as male becase most pregnancies can only be sexed at 17 weeks. But then again maybe AB was further along then we think?
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aragon77

aragon77
RE: How many pregnancies did Anne Boleyn actually have?
May 2 2008, 11:27 AM EDT
"He may have had a genetic disorder that we may never know of but he didn't have syphilis and his ulcered leg wasn't the result of an STD it was due to complicated healing after a sporting injury."
A genetic disorder b/c he did not produce a son? I asked if maybe Henry had gotten an STD like Francis b/c they both were with a lot of women who could have past something on to them through intercourse, but not adding to his leg injury. I think the leg injury is neither her nor there.
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aragon77

aragon77
RE: How many pregnancies did Anne Boleyn actually have?
May 2 2008, 11:29 AM EDT
"Well there is reason behind why Henry and other nobles didn't let their wives breast feed their own children. It's so their milk dries up, decreasing the level of the hormone prolactin (a natural contraceptive that they didn't know about in the sixteenth century but they were aware of it's effects) which suppresses the production of estrogen during breastfeeding delaying ovulation. Women of the nobility were like brood mares, they got pregnant, had their confinement, gave birth, got pregnant again, and the cycle continues until metopause or death.
Lovely, eh?"
Yes, LOL. My grandmother she is almost 100yrs old now she has 22 kids no lie. It just doesn't happen anymore, but I know a young lady who has 7 and she is no more than 30, and she says she wants 15.
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aragon77

aragon77
RE: How many pregnancies did Anne Boleyn actually have?
May 2 2008, 11:32 AM EDT
"I was thumbing around the index in Ives last night, he lists just two other pregnancies (besides Elizabeth) like Fraser.
pregnant, December 1533 which resulted in miscarriage in July 1534
then another pregnancy that appeared October 1535 which resulted in miscarriage on January 29, 1536 at 15 weeks as recorded by one court physician who was present. This was the miscarriage that led to rumours of a deformed fetus. The Catholic exile and propagandist Nicolas Sander (who wrote 40 years after the event) described the fetus as "a shapeless mass of flesh". Granted, this is the same person who wrote that AB had a sixth finger, a third breast, and was Henry's daughter. Retha Warnicke elaborates on this theory but Ives flatly denies it based on lack of evidence.
"A cover story which held for 450 years but had been unnecssary in the first place invites more than a raised eyebrow. In history, evidence matters, not invention, and no evidence whatsoever supports the alleged deformity." (page 297)
He also doubts that the fetus could have accurately been identified as male becase most pregnancies can only be sexed at 17 weeks. But then again maybe AB was further along then we think?"
What????? The Catholic exile and propagandist Nicolas Sander wrote that she had 3 breast, and was the Kings daughter??? Talk about far fetched.
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Boudica
Boudica
RE: How many pregnancies did Anne Boleyn actually have?
May 2 2008, 11:34 AM EDT
"A genetic disorder b/c he did not produce a son? I asked if maybe Henry had gotten an STD like Francis b/c they both were with a lot of women who could have past something on to them through intercourse, but not adding to his leg injury. I think the leg injury is neither her nor there. "
I meant it is more likely he had some kind of genetic disorder or physical condition that prevented him from having vailable viable offspring. Henry had no problems get a woman pregnant, the problem was that the pregancy often resulted in miscarriage or crib death. Out of all the conceptions Henry was able to produce with his wives and mistress(es) it only resulted in 4 viable offspring that we know of: Mary Tudor, Henry Fitzroy, Elizabeth Tudor, and Edward Tudor. Which leads me to think there maybe something wrong with the quality of his sperm, that may or may not have anything to do with an STD.
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aragon77

aragon77
RE: How many pregnancies did Anne Boleyn actually have?
May 2 2008, 12:41 PM EDT
"I meant it is more likely he had some kind of genetic disorder or physical condition that prevented him from having vailable viable offspring. Henry had no problems get a woman pregnant, the problem was that the pregancy often resulted in miscarriage or crib death. Out of all the conceptions Henry was able to produce with his wives and mistress(es) it only resulted in 4 viable offspring that we know of: Mary Tudor, Henry Fitzroy, Elizabeth Tudor, and Edward Tudor. Which leads me to think there maybe something wrong with the quality of his sperm, that may or may not have anything to do with an STD."
Yea, I see what your saying. Don't you wonder why the kids always died? You think maybe it was b/c no prenatal care back then?
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