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Location: Princess Mary Tudor
Discussion: Elizabeth and Mary
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 Tudor_Obssessed |
Elizabeth and Mary
Jan 27 2008, 10:43 PM EST I am currently reading Philippa Gregory's book, "The Queen's Fool" and although some of the book is VERY inaccurate, I can't help but wonder about her getting the relationship between both sisters as being dead on, in my opinion. I mean, u have Mary who is the center of her father's world until Anne Boleyn comes along, and then Mary is shipped off, not allowed to see her mother, even at her Katherine's death. Mary serves Elizabeth, and then Anne dies, and Mary takes care of her b/c she feels sorry for her and such. Maybe the reason the two could not get along was b/c Mary could not forget the way Anne had treated her and her mother, and maybe all the remarks about how Elizabeth looked like Anne's lutist, Mark Smeaton stemmed from the fact that Mary looked more Spanish and more like her mother and Elizabeth looked more like her father? I just thought this would be an interesting topic to discuss. 6 out of 7 found this valuable. Do you? |
 MsSquirrly |
RE: Elizabeth and Mary
Jan 27 2008, 10:59 PM EST I have to admit that I haven't read this book that mention ....but I am a little puzzled by a few things you said. I have read several historical accounts and I have never heard that there was any doubt that Elizabeth was Henry's child. I have never heard the allegation that Smeaton was ever even hinted at being her father. Also remember although Katherine was spanish...she had strawberry blonde hait and a light complexion and not dark. After all she had english blood in her from the house of Lancaster. Do you find this valuable? |
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Tudor_Obssessed |
RE: Elizabeth and Mary
Jan 28 2008, 11:45 AM EST I have read in several places, Alison Weir's book being one of them, that Mary accused Elizabeth of looking more like Smeaton then like Henry. Also, even though her mother was light complexed, in paintings and contemporary sources, say she looked more Spanish then English. According to one source she had "dark hair with a tint of red". Do you find this valuable? |
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MsSquirrly |
RE: Elizabeth and Mary
Jan 28 2008, 12:17 PM EST I am sure Mary built up antagonistic feelings to Elizabeth because her mother usurped her own mother on the throne and saw her as the bastard....there is no doubt....and rightfully so. But Elizabeth was so obviously the daughter of her father because of her looks. It seems she inherited her mother's eyes and spirit though. Also the religious aspect was huge. Mary was a very devout catholic like her mother and later burned over 300 "heretics" for going against the old religiong....and Elizabeth endorsed the reform which Mary found abhorrent. So there are many reasons for Mary and Elizabeth not to get on apart from Mary's insults about her looks. Do you find this valuable? |
 lettice |
RE: Elizabeth and Mary
Jan 31 2008, 12:18 PM EST All through her reign as Queen of England, Elizabeth's enemies (including the Pope, who put a price on her head) called her a heretic and a bastard. It was only her cunning & her well picked advisors that kept her on the throne for over 40 years. Her sister Mary (referred to as "Bloody Mary), did want Elizabeth dead while she reigned. Elizabeth was put in the tower for that purpose, but was wise enough even as a young princess, to not incriminate herself. This "sibling rivalry" did go back to the rivalry between their mothers Queen Katherine & Anne Boleyn. Mary vividly remembered how cruel Anne Was to her and how her mother, Queen Katherine,was put aside so Anne could marry Anne. In the end however, Mary did name Elizabeth as Heir as she died childless. There was no love lost, however between these two half sisters! Do you find this valuable? |
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Tudor_Obssessed |
RE: Elizabeth and Mary
Feb 1 2008, 3:01 PM EST Yes, the religious aspect was also very big, b/c Mary believed that Elizabeth was damning her soul to hell for her religious views. It was a true miracle that Elizabeth survived her sister's reign. Do you find this valuable? |
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lettice |
RE: Elizabeth and Mary
Feb 10 2008, 2:03 PM EST Tudor Obsessed- Yes, the religious aspect was a rift between the 2 sisters. At one point Elizabeth had to convince Mary she would go to mass in order to save herself and stay in the succession. Elizabeth's cunning kept her from the block when Mary sent her to the tower. When Mary died and Elizabeth was at Hatfield and she knew she was Queen she is quoted as saying: "It is God's will and it is wonderous in our eyes". Do you find this valuable? |
 QueenAnne |
RE: Elizabeth and Mary
Feb 18 2008, 3:45 PM EST Firstly I don;t think we should all give much credence to the supposed cruelty Mary suffered at the hands of Anne. Much of it was made up by those who hated Anne and wanted to turn people against her, namely Chapuys who never actually met Anne but was responsible for all the rumours that Anne tried to kill Mary and her mother. And don't under estimate Henry, although Anne was blamed for much of his cruelty towards his daughter, he made many of the decisions, like splitting Mary and Catherine up. Anne was always unfairly blamed. I think the age difference between the two sisters would also have been a huge factor as well as religion and everything else. Mary was a teenager when Elizabeth was born, and had to watch Elizabeth's close relationship with their brother Edward who Mary did not get along with at all. Do you find this valuable? |
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lettice |
RE: Elizabeth and Mary
Feb 23 2008, 10:34 PM EST Elizabeth's difficulty with mary also stemed from the fact that she was "second person". This is a term Elizabeth herself used to refer to the next in line to the throne. As Mary never had an heir ,Elizabeth was next for the succession. That position marked her for suspicion by her sister as plots could easily be formed in Elizabeth's name. When Elizabeth came to the Throne, she avoided naming a "second person". She learned her lesson well. Do you find this valuable? |
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miller-pvkk miller-pvkk |
RE: Elizabeth and Mary
Mar 1 2008, 9:46 AM EST I think another difficulty between Elizabeth and Mary is that they had very different attitudes towards religion. The obvious difference was that Mary was Catholic and Elizabeth was Protestant (Anglican). But there was a more fundamental difference between the two in that Mary was a religious fanatic who saw everything as black or white. Elizabeth, on the other hand, was a more sophisticated thinker who was capable of seeing many things, including religion, in less drastic terms. One of Elizabeth's best quotes is regarding religion, when she said that the important thing was that both Catholics and Protestants believe in Jesus Christ. Then she added that "everything else is a dispute over trifles." That was very advanced thinking for that time, when most Catholics and Protestants were quite willing to kill each other over the "trifles". Of course, later in Elizabeth's reign, she did have those Catholics who were plotting to overthrow her executed, but her original intent was for Catholics and Protestants to reach a civilized truce during her reign. Mary I, on the other hand, wanted to force all her Protestant subjects to return to the old Catholic ways. The punishment for not doing so was to burn at the stake. No doubt this fanaticism made Mary very suspicious of Elizabeth, especially since Elizabeth always seemed to become ill when it was time to go to mass. Also, as others have stated, it certainly didn't mitigate Mary's animosity that Elizabeth was Anne Boleyn's daughter as well as next in line to the throne. Do you find this valuable? |
 angelosdaughter |
RE: Elizabeth and Mary
Mar 31 2008, 5:56 PM EDT There was sisterly love between Mary and Elizabeth when they were younger. After all, there was a time when both were bastardized by their father. Mary was getting older and had no children; Elizbeth was quite a bit younger , more the age her child might have been had she married. Mary did at first demonstrate affection to her sister,showing her the small kindnesses that were in her power. (Weir, pg 190, Williams. pg 238) , but religious differences and the succession eventually separated them. Elizabeth was a pragmatist and her mother's daughter, most concerned with surviving and later putting herself forward. She showed no grief at Mary's death whatever her private feelings may have been. Because of her tumultuous family history and her precarious position in the court during the reigns of Henry, Edward VI, and Mary I, , Elizabeth became expert at dissembling and rarely allowed her true feelings to be known James I provided an epitaph that brought tears to my eyes when I saw it. I am very close to my sister and cannot imagine life being as it was for these two. Mary and Elizabeth now share a tomb in Westminster Abbey. The inscription reads: "Consorts both in throne and grave here rest we two sisters, Elizabeth and Mary, in the hope of one resurrection. " May God grant it. Mary's committed Catholicism was tied to the sufferings of herself, her mother , and their supporters many of whom died for the religious schism occasioned by Henry's assumption as Head of the Church of England which then permitted the divorce and Henry's subsequent bastardization of Mary, his eldest daughter.. Do you find this valuable? |
 curlyrain |
RE: Elizabeth and Mary
Mar 31 2008, 9:00 PM EDT "Consorts both in throne and grave here rest we two sisters, Elizabeth and Mary, in the hope of one resurrection. " Lovely just lovely hopefully at the end they both rest in peace since in life they were made to be enemies in a way due to their religious believes and recentments thanks to the relationship of their parents....myself been so close to all my sisters can even imagine any other way. Do you find this valuable? |