Already a member?
Sign in
Location: Queen Katherine of Aragon
Discussion: Katherine was fabulous!
Keyword tags:
anne boleyn
charles brandon
gabrielle anwar
henry viii
jeremy northam
jonathan rhys meyers
margaret tudor
natalie dormer
sam neill
showtime the tudors
the tudors
tudors characters
Watch
 jamais.de.fin_boleyn |
Katherine was fabulous!
Jan 21 2008, 5:30 PM EST I think Katherine was a great woman who was obviously loved by the crowd. Anne Boleyn pushed her off the throne, and i love Anne oh-so-much but i think Katherine was a great queen! I'm not sure if i think her marriage to Arthur was consummated... who knows! But she was awesome! READ "THE CONSTANT PRINCESS" BY PHILLIPA GREGORY! 7 out of 7 found this valuable. Do you? |
 Tudor_Obssessed |
RE: Katherine was fabulous!
Jan 21 2008, 6:37 PM EST Another PHILLIPA GREGORY fan! Yeah! I thought the theory she put forth, that the marriage was consummated and Katherine lied is very neat. After doing some independent research I think it may have been. But, as one historian said, Only God Knows. 3 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you? |
 MsSquirrly |
RE: Katherine was fabulous!
Jan 21 2008, 8:29 PM EST well she wasn't fabulous. She was a "good" woman who never did anyone any harm. She and Anne were caught up in a court divided by factions and both ended up being collateral damage. Luckily for Catherine, she didn't lose her head. I would say....rather...Catherine was lucky! 5 out of 8 found this valuable. Do you? |
 tudorcrazy |
RE: Katherine was fabulous!
Jan 21 2008, 8:41 PM EST I read that book. Yes I think she lied. Katherine rocked. Anne was not a bitch, her parents used her to climb the royal ladder. Women had no say in anything ever. Slowly things are changing. Very slowly 3 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
MsSquirrly |
RE: Katherine was fabulous!
Jan 22 2008, 8:16 AM EST Phillipa Gregory's work is just theory. A work of supposition and fiction. You are better off to read an actual historian who just gives you the facts like E.W. Ives: The life and Death of Anne Boleyn. 6 out of 7 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
jamais.de.fin_boleyn |
RE: Katherine was fabulous!
Jan 22 2008, 5:48 PM EST It was very interesting how she interpreted Katherine's life... and i understnad that it is only a view of her.. not all factual. All the same, i adore Phillippa Gregory's books! In The Other Boleyn Girl it does show how little women were thought of & how they were just stepping stoines. I think both Katherine & Anne were really awesome people. I don't agree with Phillipa in The Other Boleyn Girl on Anne's status as a witch & an adultress... I think she was innocent of those charges. 3 out of 4 found this valuable. Do you? |
 KatValois |
RE: Katherine was fabulous!
Jan 23 2008, 3:53 PM EST "well she wasn't fabulous. She was a "good" woman who never did anyone any harm. She and Anne were caught up in a court divided by factions and both ended up being collateral damage. Luckily for Catherine, she didn't lose her head. I would say....rather...Catherine was lucky!"ITA MsSquirrly and when you think about it she was the only wife of Henry's that managed to defy him for years and still kept her head on her shoulders. I know she was banished and separated from her child but still, she kept her head. 6 out of 6 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
MsSquirrly |
RE: Katherine was fabulous!
Jan 23 2008, 5:52 PM EST well she denied she was divorced but she was divorced all the same. PLus to execute her would have really taken a feat ...she was far too pious to pin anything on her and I am sure the spanish would not have taken it lightly...nor the english people who she was popular with. Still she died a few months before Anne's execution..leaving the way free and clear for Henry to install the next wife in his bed. 6 out of 8 found this valuable. Do you? |
 DarkLadyWitch11 |
RE: Katherine was fabulous!
Jan 23 2008, 8:00 PM EST To ms squirly I am glad yo say she was not fabolous but mrs squirly and all of you see Anne and catherine with eyes of human, I have human eyes and I to sadly will be bias as you. I dont see Catalina de aragon or anne boleyn as heroes, they were not both were women and were displaces by men. both were used and both HAD GOOD AND BAD POINTS WE ALL HAVE GOODNESS AND EVIL INSIDE OURSELVES IT IS THE CONSTANT BATTLE SUCH IT WAS WITH ANNE AND CATALINA NOW YOU SAY and many say well catherine was lucky she did not loose her head, loosing your head is what? 3 second , how much for the body to die? how much did cahterine suffer, not only internally but from the outside when she wa put to live in this poor castle as her health was dooming and put on worser states by boleyns and tudor King. I consider that a worse death one time my teacher said to me when I said what you said and he told me, " in the end ms. casas there are worse things than death, some things that are a living hell and you wish death all your life" he said this because he lived a hard life and probably understood catherine better, I dont neither do I understand Anne boleyn because I can try, I do understand their actions, but not their pain since I have not had that yet. 0 out of 8 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
jamais.de.fin_boleyn |
RE: Katherine was fabulous!
Jan 23 2008, 8:56 PM EST VERY GOOD POINT "D. L. W 11" i can see where you are coming from...I think Katherine did suffer in her life... it may have been worse than death... but i feel she never lost her digbity & always kept her chin up. She never showed too much emotion & always seemed calm & in control. 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
MsSquirrly |
RE: Katherine was fabulous!
Jan 23 2008, 9:34 PM EST DLW, Oh I never said Anne was a heroine, she was far too mortal for that. I also agree with you that Katherine suffered greatly because she had been bred to be a queen...she had done her part and was probably immensely confused by the role Henry pushed on her. However, to say that Anne had no suffering maybe short sighted too. If it is true that she truly loved Henry Percy and was torn from him to be pushed into this very highly charged political arena which was the tudor court must have taken a great deal of courage. Of course we all know we are terminal but Anne was still a young woman and mother and told she was to have her head seperated from her body on a certain day. She can be admired for facing it bravely and with dignity despite the fact that she was innocent of the charges. She knew she had to so that her family would not suffer after. She was fabulous. 5 out of 5 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
DarkLadyWitch11 |
RE: Katherine was fabulous!
Jan 23 2008, 11:16 PM EST You are gith in the end here is my conlcusion: BOTH SUFFERED. Now like I told my professor I understand WHY THEY DID the things they did although some to both might seem henious and evil, both did what they did , as humans they were looking for the crown and for the ambition to have power, then both looked for survival CATHERINE AND ANNE WERE EQUAL IN MANY WAYS ALTHOUGH YOU MIGHT REFUTE AND SAY NO. My professor could understand anne's and SPECIALLY catherine of aragon's suffering better since well he suffered more then I can imagine, I will not tell about his happening in memory of that suffering but will only say he lived in very bad times and was at the wrong place and at the wrong time, so he (my professor) was always neutral, all of my tutors and principles, professors were neutral, one of them said, I will come to teach you but if you excpect the goody God clas of heroines and suffering pitty women then go somwhere else :( yes they were tough and boy were they strict, but I thank God I had them to learn. so I will always be neutral but like you said squirrel I can't avoid being bias if not in words and demonstration then in thought. after all I have human eyes and human mind, and those eyes see black and white at some point. like all. 1 out of 8 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
KatValois |
RE: Katherine was fabulous!
Jan 24 2008, 8:19 AM EST To be perfectly honest and IMHO while I don't really admire any of the women who married or slept with Henry or consider them as "Hero's" in my life, I still have to acknowledge their ability to cope, survive and/or die with dignity. While its great that you have had professors that you have learned & gained so much from, I find it hard IMO that they are unbiased or neutral. They are human and therefore are naturally biased as ALL humans are. And just as your professor has suffered in whatever capacity in life, there are millions more in this world who too have suffered such as he and some may have suffered more. I am not discounting his suffering so please do not misunderstand me. What I am saying is that because of his suffering, it doesn't make his opinion more valuable than anyone else's in this world. Just because He says so, his opinion is not more valid than anyone else's that has been expressed here. And it surprised me that as someone who has suffered (your Professor) that he is so willing to dismiss the suffering of others. If I misunderstood your vehemence in saying that your professor is the authority in Tudor History and therefore should be deferred to by all here, than I apologize. I would rather hear Your opinion than your Professor's. A good Professor gives you knowledge and then understands and encourages a student to form His or Her OWN opinion. If I've misunderstood your intent, than my bad. ;) 4 out of 5 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
Tudor_Obssessed |
RE: Katherine was fabulous!
Jan 24 2008, 4:14 PM EST I know that Philippa Gregory's work was fiction, but the historian David Starkey put the theory forth in his book "Six Wives: The Queens of Henry VIII." I also got some more info, from a website which stated: "There is also the fact that Catherine and Arthur understood that they needed to begin producing heirs for England, something they would have regarded as a pressing and major duty. It was perfectly common then for a girl to marry and to be expected to consummate her marriage at a very young age; Margaret Beaufort was only 12 when she married Edmund Tudor." This is my opinion, though. I think the whole debate is very interesting though. 0 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
 andbookworm001 |
RE: Katherine was fabulous!
Jan 24 2008, 4:19 PM EST "To ms squirly I am glad yo say she was not fabolous but mrs squirly and all of you see Anne and catherine with eyes of human, I have human eyes and I to sadly will be bias as you.You Again? This girl/boy/person was on the IMDB boards ranting on and on about human nature and not making heroes of Anne/Katherine in the middle of civilized conversations. Eventually he/she got so annoying I assume she got embarrassed and ran off... Ignoring he/she is the best thing to do, unless you want to pull your hair out. 6 out of 8 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
andbookworm001 |
RE: Katherine was fabulous!
Jan 24 2008, 4:27 PM EST I like Katherine very much. I used to have less respect for her than I do now, but I've only recently come to admire her as much as I do recently =) No, I don't think her marraige to Arthur was consummated at the moment. It changes every time I read something new, but I've held this opinion for a couple of months now and I haven't changed my mind yet. The best arguments from both sides so far have come from David Starkey(yes) and Antonia Fraser(no). Alison Weir doesn't even bother to try to prove her point, just states her opinion as fact. One biographer I've read(I think it was Mattingly) just throws lies out there making his argument difficult to accept. I don't count Phillipa Gregory as a historian or anything equivalent. 2 out of 2 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
Tudor_Obssessed |
RE: Katherine was fabulous!
Jan 24 2008, 4:45 PM EST Your absolutely right. Alison Weir doesn't even give the facts to back it up. (Even though I love the book she wrote, it was great) I think Katherine was a very great woman, because of everything she had to endure and put up with, and the WAY she put up with it. But on the other hand, she was so stubborn and hard-headed! I mean, she knew what Henry was like. If Henry wanted something he was going to get it no matter what, so why didn't she just consent, and take the (in my view smart) way, like Anne of Cleves did? I guess maybe she didn't know to what extremes that he would go, I guess. But this is my opinion. Do you find this valuable? |
|
MsSquirrly |
RE: Katherine was fabulous!
Jan 24 2008, 4:45 PM EST I agree bookworm ( re: hair pulling LOL) As to the consummation of the marriage. It will remain one of those unknown mysteries. They were only married 5 months and both young teenagers with Henry being rather sickly and they both had the sweating sickness which he passed away from ...so it is possible it wasn't consummated. Its sort of moot when you think that Henry was married to her for 24 years and suddenly got a pain in his conscience about it. Henry was the architect of the mess of his life. Like a spoiled brat he wanted what he wanted and to hell with the consequences. The two women Katherine and Anne were both intelligent and strong people and could not have been unaware of the factions that supported them. They both knew the politics that were involved. 4 out of 5 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
andbookworm001 |
RE: Katherine was fabulous!
Jan 24 2008, 5:07 PM EST Honestly, I'm Team Katherine until about 1529 when the consequences of her refusal began to become clear, then I promptly switch sides. I respect and admire her for much much more than her refusal in the divorce which is The Reason some people admire her. IMO, after about 1530 or so, Katherine would have had to have been very naive or very selfish to continue on the path she did. She either had to honestly misunderstand Henry and his capabilities until she died or see the destruction that was occurring and still continue on that path. I opt for the former because the Katherine I love until this point was helplessly good natured, intelligent, loving woman who wouldn't inflict the harm that became of her closest friends on her worst enemy. It's unfortunate for her that something was blinding her. "Henry was the architect of the mess of his life." That is a great quote. Every time I think of the little baby moaning on and on about his lack of a male heir, his poor choice in women, the misfortune of his daughters, the "betrayal" of his friends, I get a little sick and thank GOD that I was not alive during the time that he was Absolute Ruler. 7 out of 7 found this valuable. Do you? |
|
DarkLadyWitch11 |
RE: Katherine was fabulous!
Jan 24 2008, 5:39 PM EST First of all kat, my PROFESSOR NEVER TAUGHT ME TUDORS HISTORY DUHH HE TAUGHT US SOCIOECONOMICS AND ANCIENT WORLD HISTORY UP TO 1200'S!!! WHEN ME AND MY FRIENDS WERE DISCUSSING WITH HIM A PROJECT THAT WE HAD TO ASK OPINIONS, WE ASKED HIM HIS OPINIONS ON ANNE BOLEYN AND CATHERINE OF ARAGON AND HE SAID SO. No I dont put his word on authority, why? because I am neutral to put his as authority would be bias. and yes he was bias, to the people who he saw killed kids, so yes he was human after all and you are right that does not exclude him from the corrupt human eyes we all have. But I have learned a lot from my eyes, and yes they are biases, and so my professors, all MY PROFESSOR GAVE ME WAS KNOWLEDGE, NEVER SAID THEY AGREED, NEVER SAW AN INCH OF BIAS ON THEIR FACE EVEN IF THEIR EYES REFLECTED SO, THEY GAVE THE KNOWLEDGE AS YOU SAID KATVALOIS. The rest was for us to decide, they gave the bad and good from all history. they gave the ugly and good aspects, EVERYTHING almost, so it was only us who had to make the choice or no choice at all what we would decide, what we decided they had no part. And so they gave the information, GOOD AND EVIL and then they told us, well you can see from whatever you like, you can all decide, they encouraged us to learn. 3 out of 10 found this valuable. Do you? |
