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SemperEadem |
KOA vs Anne
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 tudorcrazy |
KOA vs Anne
Mar 18 2009, 11:27 AM EDT
Hi Semper,I have been reading Alison Weir's six wives of henry the 8th, and I am not liking Anne at all. The Tudors makes her story so romantic, and her downfall so sad, yet Weirs really deveops their relationhip as pretty rocky from the beginnng, making her downfall not as swift as it is portrayed in the show. Also, I knew of her unpopularity with the people, but Weir talks about it much more thoroughly, throughout their relationship, and I think the Tudors dosen't go into it except at her coronation. Henry's brutality is certainly developed by Jane, but he didn't read or understand his peoples feelings. I am not loving Anne so much, should I feel guilty? |
 SemperEadem |
1. RE: KOA vs Anne
Mar 18 2009, 11:52 AM EDT | Post edited: Mar 18 2009, 11:55 AM EDT
I wouldn't worry about feeling guilty, tudorcrazy, lol. Actually, I am not a big fan of Weirs's books aside from the easy read, because she is not a professional historian of the time period, and thus she is occasionally unbalanced in her investigations. Certainly, Anne was very much disliked by the common people, but I can't really blame them. When Anne came in, think about all of the horrible things Henry began to do. The people were Catholic, had been all of their lives, and suddenly the King tells them, "Oh, and by the way, I'm kicking out the Queen that you've had no reason to dislike, and I'm turning away from the Pope, who you've never even considered NOT being the head of the church. Ta-da!" Tudor England was also very hierarchical, and people were supposed to "know their place." Literally. Kings took Princesses for wives, and they certainly didn't throw them away for their mistress. A king kept his mistress on the side. Anne didn't stay on the side like she was supposed to. But yes, a majority of the people never liked Anne. That is probably one reason (besides having the whole bastard thing brought up) that Elizabeth rarely mentioned her mother. The Tudors probably does over-romanticize Anne, but its hard to know how much because our evidence from the time period is scanty, anyway. At any rate, Henry ignored them. He was quite good at looking over what bothered him, which was probably a good thing, because let's think about what happened when he really concentrated on what annoyed him. :-{ Here is my suggestion: read Eric Ives's book on Anne Boleyn. He is the expert on Anne at the moment, and his is the biography I turn to if I need something on Anne. You may not come away loving Anne, but you will have a more balanced understanding for why she did what she did. |
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tudorcrazy |
2. RE: KOA vs Anne
Mar 18 2009, 2:35 PM EDT
Thanks for your quick response. I have read Ive's book along with many about KOA, and I really find so many people in the Anne camp, on the wiki and the show is so well done. The fact that Henry destroyed all traces of her, makes historical investigation difficult. I was just so willing to give so much more objectivity about Anne, and the more I know the more confused I get. Frankly, I might be too close to my subject to be objective. I am an older woman (58), I assume you are younger, and much more involved in academics than I am. However I have an Ivy league education, not in history, but have been reading Tudor history long before the Showtime production. My take was than Anne was a puppet of her Father, her Uncle, and the court in general, by turning her involvement with Henry into political gains for the Boleyns. It never occured to me that she was tough and ruthless, and stubborn until I read other books about her. She had a real hatred for Catherine, and Mary, who really were innocent victims in this, and Anne being a feminist herslf, I find her obssesiveness a bit unbalanced. Of course, I'm sure the pressure, intrigue, and constant sexual frustration, could drive anyone over the edge, not to mention dealing with Henry, who I am conviced was at best predisposed to tyranny and extremely narsistic, At worst, he turned into a lunatic murderer, who had enough power to self destruct at anytime. I am very pleased with season 3, and as far as I am concerned they could run this show to it's obvious conclusion, which in my opinion is the glorious revolution of William and Mary, which I consider the end of the monarchy as a theocracy. I respect your opinion, and find that writing to you, or other modators gives me a more personal answer to my questions.I started a thread on a tudorcrazy library, but am sad to say that I have been a victim of the economy, can't afford the books, and am very busy presently trying to sell my home. TY again |
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SemperEadem |
3. RE: KOA vs Anne
Mar 18 2009, 4:20 PM EDT
It really is the great debate about Anne. Some view her as a puppet, others view her as having great agency and attempting to control her own destiny. Which is right? I suppose it might be somewhere in the middle. Too bad we can't find a private diary with Anne telling us exactly what she was thinking! Any study of early modern women is inevitably complicated by the same debate: victims or agents? Some blame the decreasing power of the monarchy on Elizabeth, who as a woman was bullied by the men's club. Others say, no, she really was playing them to do what she wanted them to do. So who knows? We have to continue to do research and see what is turned upI actually have a theory about Anne's obsessiveness concerning Catherine and Mary (besides, that to assure her place and her child's, she had to be anxious about them), but it could never be proven. I actually am reminded of Anne in Mary's late reign. I do wonder about the hormone imbalance caused by multiple failed or phantom pregnancies. But this is just an idea floating around in my head, so don't listen to me. :-) |
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SemperEadem |
4. RE: KOA vs Anne
Mar 18 2009, 4:28 PM EDT
To continue...On another note, respectfully, I don't consider Anne to be a feminist, and neither was Elizabeth. Feminists tend to like Anne because they see her as asserting herself (although, some scholars turn that on its head and say, well, if she wanted to keep her virtue and make a better marriage to someone else later, she had to keep her virginity), but Anne, in any case, was not making strides for the rights of other females, just herself. And Elizabeth certainly was not a feminist, as she legitimized her power as being an "extraordinary female," or a sole member of the boy's club. They both displayed tendencies that are reminiscent of feminism, however, but a real feminist mentality did not begin to form until the 19th century, and more so in the 20th century. The same could be said for Katherine of Aragon as well. She fought for her place, but not for that of other women (besides her daughter, of course). Oddly, I'm surprised that no one ever comments this about her? I think it is because they view her as a victim, which she was, but she showed as much agency as Anne did. She worked with what she had. |
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SemperEadem |
5. RE: KOA vs Anne
Mar 18 2009, 4:31 PM EDT
To continue...Personally, I prefer neither Anne nor Katherine over the other. I think they're both fascinating women, but I believe the reason that Anne receives so much attention today is because she was slandered for hundreds of years as "the other woman" (which, she was, but people rarely looked at the context of her situation). I truly think it is time for Katherine of Aragon to be reassessed, because now she comes off as the dumpy victim. A gendered reinterpretation of her would be good to have. Or at least an article. Interestingly enough, it really needs to follow the historiographical lines of research done on Elizabeth and Mary in recent years. It wasn't until feminist and gendered interpretations of Elizabeth were complete in the mid to late 1990s that such articles began to be turned out on Mary. Hopefully, this will soon happen for Katherine, as quite a flurry of articles were released on Anne in the 1990s. I don't think scholarship can advance, however, if scholars continue to pit the two women against one another. Or, actually, a dual book on the two would be great, as long as the scholars did not pit their analysis of each queen against the other. Certainly, they were rivals, but each needs to be taken in her own context. |
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SemperEadem |
6. RE: KOA vs Anne
Mar 18 2009, 4:36 PM EDT
And sorry to hear that you, too, are a victim of the economy. :-P At least there is always the library, and interlibrary loan! I hope you find a buyer for your home soon. :-)
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tudorcrazy |
7. RE: KOA vs Anne
Mar 18 2009, 6:53 PM EDT
Semper thanks again to take the time to give me a THOUGHTFUL AND EDUCATED RESPONSE. I agree 100% with all you said, and i also used the term feminist out of context. However, many women felt that because Anne wasn't the yes Henry anything you say Henry type that say she had feminist leanings that many historical feminist historians look at her with empathy. Yo're certainly right that she was looking out for number one, and Elizabeth, but look at the alternative.I almost feel Jane Seymour's death in childbirth was a blessing for her, because as season 3 shows justifiable, once Henry married these women they had a terrible life, besides not being poor.I happen to think your theory about hormone imbalances with KOA, and Mary is more than plausu ible, as I never thought of that but rather that all the intermarriage between the royal lines certainly could cause the amount of miscarriages, and still borns, and LUNACY, displayed by so many royals. Juana was mad, both KOA and Anne had a lot of miscarriages. and Mary is documented to be depressed and suffer terrible menstral problems. I come from a family, which has a genetic history of hormone imbalance. Of course my mother suffered terribly, and in the 50's and 60's they sent her to a psychiatrist. hen they found a tumor the size of a grpefruit in her uterus, and she had a hisrectomy. She died young of brest cancer, along with her sister who also died at 42, or breast cancer (she was also a schizphrenic), and the tird sister had breast cancer but survived. My daughter suffers from migraines since she was 13, everyday, and has been on hormones every since. She is 28. I myself had a bilateral mastectomy as a precaution, at 43, and a complete hysterectomy at 49, from which I never fully recovered. I took so many hormone relacement drugs to function, that of course I got thyroid cancer. TBC |
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tudorcrazy |
8. RE: KOA vs Anne
Mar 18 2009, 7:37 PM EDT
So, I really think your theory is brilliant, and it's a shame you couldn't back it up with medical historical facts. However, we know that Princess Mary suffered terribly from menstrual problems, and was barren. I'm sure the genetic disposition was there, and I also believe nutrition, and lack of overall healthy lifestyles were to blame, as well as having no parents most of her life. so sad. No fresh vegetables, citrus, freezing damp mold in those castles, and bringing shut in like a prisoner when she "took to her chamber," sounds so depressing in general besides the lack of fresh air, sunshine, and normal human contact. It could not have been good for the health of the mother. And of course, they drank ale and wine all day. I have to think having a wet nurse couldn't be the best situation for the newborn either, but that's a long shot. However, it did retard the Mother's recovery, as breastfeeding calms Mother and baby, and shrinks the uterus. I have 3 daughters, 2 that are identical twins, and the bond of nursing was essential,both physically and for my sanity, as it forced me to sit down, and have a special bond with each baby. Bessie Blount, and Mary Boleyn were of different stock, and may have been hormonally more stable. Also... both Anne and KOA were not young for conception, by the standards of the time.You're brilliant Semper. Thank you for giving me the intellectual discussion I find lacking sometimes on the wiki, as many are very into the show, and are not as well read as others. Are you a grad student?? Where if you don't mind me asking? I tried to find a school where I could audit classes in history, but sadly, I am too young. You need to be 65. |
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tudorcrazy |
9. RE: KOA vs Anne
Mar 18 2009, 7:42 PM EDT
I doubt I'll make it, as women have terrible longevity in my family, but who knows? I have been very busy getting my house ready for sale and spent the whole day preparing my gardens, as we will be planting a very large one this I have been very busy getting my house ready or sale. If you read my profile our house burned down in 2003, and it took 2 years to rebuild, and I just finished unpacking.I am an avid gardener and have been preparing to plant a huge veggie garden this spring out of necessity, for food. It's good for me mentally not to focus on losing everything I worked my whole life for. I must remain positive, and the people on the wiki have really been so kind and helpful. I do read extensively, and I live for the Tudors, and all my friends here. Thanks again, your correspondence is my lifeline. Sorry about all the typos in the previous post. I was interrupted by hubby and daughter.JAN |
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SemperEadem |
10. RE: KOA vs Anne
Mar 18 2009, 9:38 PM EDT | Post edited: Mar 18 2009, 9:45 PM EDT
Someone probably could make my theory work, but they would have to be a trained medical historian. I have a friend in the department whose focus is medical history, but she concentrates in the nineteenth century. It's very tricky to figure out what was going on with them medically, because they didn't know. It just seems that their behavior became more irrational around the times they miscarried/had a phantom pregnancy. Like you, the women in my family have a history of hormone imbalance, too, and what you described is what my mother went through a few years ago. But from what I know of her, and what I know of you, I suspect you are both fighters and will make it. :-)Yes, I am in graduate school, on the east coast. Forgive me for not posting it here as I am nervous about posting info about myself on the internet. Also, might I ask if you have an iTunes account? If not, you should apply for one (it is free, I believe), and check out their section called iTunes U. There, there are lectures posted from universities all around the world. Stanford, Warwick University, Emory, Missouri State University, and Arizona State University are just a few that post their lectures. So even if you cannot audit a class, you can listen to them online for free! And I immensely enjoy conversing with you as well, tudorcrazy. Send me a message anytime! :-) |
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tudorcrazy |
11. RE: KOA vs Anne
Mar 18 2009, 11:01 PM EDT
thank you for the lovely reply. I think you could find some medical records of that time, but it would be quite an undertaking, expensive, and possibly lead nowhere. My daughter went to school with a girl whose father was a medical historian at Penn. Wrote a book about the assasination of President Garfield, which I read when we were neighbors, but they moved to Boston, as his wife Drew Faust is now the president of Harvard. Boy, nothing like name dropping, but it's true.I know about the itunes lectures, but I did forget! I will definitely listen to some. Oddly, I think University of Penna,(I am an alumni and live in Phille), has a top Tudor History department, but would you believe the woman who lectures is on sabbatical? When she returns I think she would be more than happy to let me listen to some of her lectures, but being a big shot she only teaches one course. Please excuse my first post, the typos were atrotious. Didn't proof read, and got interrupted. I'm embarassed. Goodnight. It's late, and I must say the roto tilling was strenuous. I've had my cocktails, and face another uphill climb tomorrow. I'm still kicking, and I think someday I'll laugh about this, or at least tell my grandchildren about the depression, like my Father tells us. His stories are all about bootleggers, speakeasies,and stock trades. He came from a wealthy backround, but hey, everyone was poor then, just like now. I still have the internet, on demand cable, and 3 gorgeous brilliant daughters, although they are still spending not earning! My twins are freshman with 7 scholarships at UVM, but we still are paying huge tuitions, including my older one who stayed 5 years to write a thesis, and then went to grad school immediately But they are fab. I am sooo lucky. good night |
